noisy neighbour (impact sound)

[Deleted User]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the best place to put this or not. And I apologise in advance for this lengthy post. Just after a bit of advice please, this is the background:

A summarised version as suggested by user1977

1.      exposure to long term (more than 5 years & on an almost daily basis) higher levels of noise at home from upstairs

2.      The noises can occur at any time. But 11p.m - 8a.m the worst, often exposing to the noise all night.

3.      Talked to her neighbour directly but her neighbour just denies everything and then making EVEN MORE noises...

4.      Reported the noise nuisance to the local council (sent recordings to the council for further review as well as completing many noise diaries over the years) but to no avail, and the council refused to pay her a visit because it is impact sound

5.      Visited some communities asking for help but they all told her to contact the council.

6.      Called the police for help, again the police advised to contact the council.

7.      Cannot speak English + have many health problems and the problems got a lot worse by the noises + cannot afford to rent another flat

8.      Thinking to pay her local councillor a visit as well as seeing some lawyers about this noise problem.

Q: What else she could possibly do/try in this case?

More Details below if needed:

A friend of mine is a woman living in a small flat alone (no family in UK). She cannot speak English. She is a council tenant. She has multiple long lasting health problems and the problems got a lot worse by exposure to long term (>5 years & on an almost daily basis) higher levels of noise at home from her upstair (also a council tenant), e.g: headache, Chest/heart pain etc. She eventually quit her job early May because of ill health (she just felt bad getting paid while not working). She has been trying very hard to resolve the noise problems, but to no avail.

Type of noises heard: Extremely loud banging sound, slaming doors/windows, exaggerated stomping feet, running, dragging something across the floor, rolling sounds of something, machine sounds etc

Time started: any time. But 11p.m - 8a.m the worst, often exposing to the noise all night. Consequently, my friend cannot fall asleep at night, and even if she can, she constantly wakes up in a panic because of some sudden loud banging sounds from her upstair.

What she has done so far/over the years:

Bought earbuds /headphone but after a year she found it very difficult kept wearing them every single night. And even wearing those earbuds, she still can hear the sounds. .

Talk to her neighbour directly. But her neighbour just denies everything and then making EVEN MORE noises...

Report the noise nuisance to her council. Because she cannot speak English she asked her friends (e.g: me) to call the council on her behalf. The council refused to visit her and witness the noise because it is impact sound.

Council: "Difficult to capture." "It is hard to decide if a statutory noise nuisance is happening."

or "Is there noise in the flat right now?"

WE: "Not now. But we just heard banging 2 minutes ago, and the noise might reoccur soon"

Council: "So there is no noise in the property right now, right? So we cannot visit your friend because there is no noise!"

However the noise then just reoccurred and went on all night.

And sometimes we called the council around 11:00 p.m but received a call back around 1 a.m and were then told they cannot visit my friend because they almost finished...

After a few attempts, my friend stopped calling the council because no one is willing to help her in this way. She then went straight to the council and booked a face to face meeting with the officer.

1st meeting, lasted no more than 5 minutes, and the officer simply told her they will investigate it. Heard nothing back from the council for months, but the noises still on going, then arranged a 2nd f2f meeting with the council.

2nd meeting, lasted roughly 10 minutes, the officer told her they had spoken with her neighbour, and her neighbour apparantly denies everything. And the officer said that, after chatting to her neighbour he think she is a lovely lady, if my friend really heard loud noises, the sound might come from somewhere else, because sound can travel through the building. My friend had firmly confirmed the noises she heard are from the flat directly above, the officer then told her the council will investigate it further. Again heard nothing back from the council for months, but the noises still on going, then arranged a 3rd f2f meeting with the council.

3rd meeting, the officer said he had called her neighbour again after the 2nd meeting, and her neighbour was crying very badly and still denied everything. And her neighbour told the officer it was my friend, who making noises all the time and as a result she was unable to sleep in the AFTERNOON.

The officer also said he had visited her neighbour recently and they caught my friend making noises on the spot. My friend was then very angry, she asked the officer when he visited her neighbour, and if they really caught her on the spot, why no one from the council ever gets in touch with her to discusss the problems until now, what time they heard the "noise" and what types of noises they heard etc... The officer answered nothing to her questions, but kept implying my friend is a troublemaker.

My friend then asked if the officer could please also arrange a visit to her flat at night. The officer said he is not working at night, and he will need to check with his manager first about this request. Heard nothing back for a week, called the office for an update, was told the officer was on holidays. My friend then waited another 2 weeks, still heard nothing back from the council, called the office again, finally the council said they would send someone to visit my friend at 11 p.m.

Two officers visited my friend that night, and they were talking and laughing loudly. My friend knew they had arrived even before they knocking on the door.  And as soon as my friend opened the door, they said to my friend very loudly they are from the council and then just laughing again. When they entered the flat they still talking and laughing loudly, my friend therefore kindly asked them if they could please reduce the volume of their voices a bit just in case.  This apparantly made them very angry, after checking/noting down some details with my friends, they said they had been in the flat for 10 minutes, and still heard nothing, then just left. My friend felt very sorry, and she then felt even more sorry after hearing the noises occurred again after 3 a.m. It somehow was just a really quiet night that night until 3 a.m and she should not have asked the officers to lower their voice.

When she asked a friend to call the council the following morning to say sorry, the officer said they had visited my friend and confirmed there was no noise in the flat. He said the case would therefore be closed. My friend felt very sorry and sad but not sure what else she can do to prove that she is not lying. She then just done nothing for over a year even though she still having noises from her upstair on almost daily basis and cannot enjoy her home/ cannot sleep at night.

She decided to contact the council again after a year because things are just getting a lot worse. The noises are getting louder and lourder and throughout the night. What it is more, there are other issues with her upstairs (sorry but I would not disclose the information here). She then arranged a 4th meeting with the council. This time the officer asked her to complete a noise diary.

When she received the form, we noticed we have to call the council to report the noise problems so the council could send someone to visit her and witness the noise. But again, whenever we called the officers just refused to visit her like before. We then contacted the officer we met in person to tell him the issue and he said he would liaise with the other team about this. But still when we called no one ever visited. My friend had completed the dairy a few times as per requested. But never heard back from the council after submitting the forms. Whenever she got in touch with the council, they just issued her another diary to be completed. And no one ever visited her when we called the council to report an on going noise problem at night despite talking to many officers.

What it is more, one time when we called the council again at night to report a noise problem, the officer said that they had visited my friend before and there was no noise! So they would not visit my friend again because there is no noise! My friend was very upset and hopeless. She had been completing the diaries as per requested for almost a year but she felt she was not being trusted. After the call, she once again gave up and done nothing for a few months although she is still hearing noises all the time. But luckily she got her courage back in the end and arranged another meeting with the council.

At the meeting the officer suggested my friend to download some voice recording apps on her phone so they can then review the recordings. My friend tried to record the noises for just over a month and then arranged another meeting with the officer. The officer however refused to touch her phone at the meeting and asked her to email the recordings instead. Also the officer said to my friend he already saw her many times. He has other priorities and cannot keep seeing her like this. So he asked my friend to just call or text or email him if needed. 

My friend never uses email before, when she tried to send the recordings to the council with the help of a friend who trying to guide her over the phone, she accidentally deleted the whole thing. So she had to do it all over again. She at first was trying to email the recordings to the council on daily basis as well as sending a text to the officer detailing the noises heard. But just after a few days the officer said to my friend he had received too many messages from my friend. In the end, we agreed to only text the officer on daily basis to tell him the noises heard, and email the recordings to the council in one go after a month. When we finally emailed the recordings to the council, the officer said he would review them at his conveniences. When we asked if we need to send in more recordings he said wait after he finished reviewing the recordings received. Since then, my friend still texted the officer on daily basis sharing with him the details of the noises she heard, but sent no recordings.

After waiting 3 months, my friend finally received a text from the officer. To our surprise, the officer asked my friend if she had got any evidences or recordings to proof that her upstairs are making noises, if not, his manager has decided to close this case. We called the council immediately and we were then told the recordings we sent are "not good". We said to the officer we already tried our best, my friend recorded lots recordings and her phone was already full. But it was very difficult to capture the sound because it occurred out of the blue and then disappeared within a few second. Also even if we captured the sounds somehow the sound volume are really very low on the phone, the sounds are really loud to the ears though. The ones we sent are the very few which the noises can actually be heard. But the officer insisted they need evidences otherwise they will just close the case. We then asked for another 1 month before they closing the case down. During that month we had a few people taking turns visiting my friend's flat at night to try to record the noises using our own phones (different models/mades) but sadly we still won't be able to capture the noises as we origianlly expected. We then decided to try videoing. But again only a few videos successfully captured the noises and the sound volume are still very low. Luckily the council seems to accept the videos as some kinds of evidences in the end. But they said the noises might be just 'living noise'. They said they will investigate it further but we just heard nothing back since then.

My friend stopped working in May and since then, she had visited some communities asking for help but they all told her to contact the council. She also called the police once asking for help, then again, the police told her to contact the council. She finally decided to apply for rehousing this June and submitted lots medical reports to back up her case but the council offered no priority if the issues with her current property are just noises. She has no family members living in the UK and cannot speak English. And her health is getting a lot worse over time. She had been working continuously over the past 10+ years but she was one of the low paid workers. She does not want to apply for benefits so she has been using her savings since May. She also spent quite a fortune re-deco the flat with the hopes of reducing the noises over the years. She now really cannot afford to rent another flat to live. As a friend we feel very bad for her. At the moment she is thinking to pay her local councillor a visit as well as seeing some lawyers about this noise problem. During covid a lot of our friends moved out of London and I would be leaving UK very soon (go home), thus unable to provide her with help (translation) in future. We were just wondering what else she could possibly do in her case. Any inputs would be highly appreciated!

 

user1977

[Deleted User] said:

Any inputs would be highly appreciated!

You probably want to post a summarised version if you want people to read it and advise.

AdrianC

There is no guarantee of absolute silence from neighbours in flats - it's simply impossible.

So, yes, there has to be a level of noise that's deemed acceptable.

And, yes, it's very difficult for the local authority to determine if the noise is past that line or not, especially if it's infrequent and caused by normal "living" sounds rather than unreasonable events like a party.

The local authority are indeed the right people to speak to, but they are MASSIVELY overloaded and understaffed - so if there's an occasional noise which is unlikely to be from an unreasonable source, and that cannot be predicted, witnessed, or documented, then it's no wonder they're not taking the complaints seriously. They simply prioritise the things they can do something about.

[Deleted User] said:

Two officers visited my friend that night, and they were talking and laughing loudly. My friend knew they had arrived even before they knocking on the door.  And as soon as my friend opened the door, they said to my friend very loudly they are from the council and then just laughing again. When they entered the flat they still talking and laughing loudly, my friend therefore kindly asked them if they could please reduce the volume of their voices a bit just in case.  This apparantly made them very angry

This bit does make me wonder, though, if she might be overly sensitive to sounds...?

You say she does not speak English - any at all, or just not fluently? I presume the local authority staff were not speaking her language?

[Deleted User]

user1977 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Any inputs would be highly appreciated!

You probably want to post a summarised version if you want people to read it and advise.

Thank you for your prompt reply. I just updated the post with a summarised version. Hope this helps. 

rach_k

Does your friend have neighbours to the sides of her?  Has she (or you, on her behalf) spoken to them?  If her upstairs neighbour is really so loud, I think it would be likely that they would also hear the noise, even though it's not directly above them. She could also ask the neighbours to the sides of the noisy one - sounds like doors slamming are loud to the sides too. It may help if more than one neighbour contacts the council.  

Has somebody else listened to the noise?  Can you invite somebody you know round?  Maybe at 7am (I'd do that for a friend!).  They may be able to tell you whether it's really that bad.

I'd suggest your friend tries the mouldable ear plugs in the meantime.

[Deleted User]

AdrianC said:

There is no guarantee of absolute silence from neighbours in flats - it's simply impossible.

So, yes, there has to be a level of noise that's deemed acceptable.

And, yes, it's very difficult for the local authority to determine if the noise is past that line or not, especially if it's infrequent and caused by normal "living" sounds rather than unreasonable events like a party.

The local authority are indeed the right people to speak to, but they are MASSIVELY overloaded and understaffed - so if there's an occasional noise which is unlikely to be from an unreasonable source, and that cannot be predicted, witnessed, or documented, then it's no wonder they're not taking the complaints seriously. They simply prioritise the things they can do something about.

[Deleted User] said:

Two officers visited my friend that night, and they were talking and laughing loudly. My friend knew they had arrived even before they knocking on the door.  And as soon as my friend opened the door, they said to my friend very loudly they are from the council and then just laughing again. When they entered the flat they still talking and laughing loudly, my friend therefore kindly asked them if they could please reduce the volume of their voices a bit just in case.  This apparantly made them very angry

This bit does make me wonder, though, if she might be overly sensitive to sounds...?

You say she does not speak English - any at all, or just not fluently? I presume the local authority staff were not speaking her language?

Thank you, Adrian C, for the detailed response!

She never has any issues with her old neighbours before, but they moved to another country, and then this new neighbour moved in roughly 6 yrs ago. And she has been having noise problems ever since. So she knows those are not normal "living" sounds.

At first she tried to settle the issue between themselves. She bought earpuds/headphones, re-deco the flat to reduce the noise, talked to the neighbough directly (she even bought gifts to her neighbour). But none of these really helps. 

Consider the timing (e.g: between 11pm to 8am) and the frequency (on and off throughout the night on almost daily basis) of the noise nuisances, how loud the noises actually were, and there are more noises after talking to her neighbour, she cannot help but felt that the noises from neighbours upstairs may have been made deliberately. 

She then asked the council for help after having on going noises problem for over a year. 

And as I already mentioned above, she has many medical conditions which got a lot worse over time. She cannot fall asleep at nights because of the noises, and often wake up in shock by some sudden loud banging sounds.  And during the day she has to work very hard Mon-Sat. She fainted a few times at work early this year and this is why she decided to take a break. She decided to quit the job because she felt very sorry for being paid but not worked. 

She always trys to find peaceful ways to resolve the problems. As stated above she has been working with her local council for many years. She completed the noise diaries numerous times as per requested. She sent recordings to back up her case as per requested. She called council to report a noise nuisance and request a visit although got refused, as per requested. She never wants to be a troublemaker but exposure to long term harmful noise has serious adverse effects on her health.  

I am not sure if she is overly sensitive to sounds. It was 11p.m and I think she just wanted to be considerated because she was "accused of" making noises by her neighbours and the council officer. 

No she cannot speak English at all. And you're right the local authority staff cannot speak her language. This is why she always have to ask a friend for help. E.g: called the council on her behalf, went to meet with the officer etc. But again a lot of us moved out of London during covid, and I will be leaving UK soon. So we are unable to help her in future. 

[Deleted User]

rach_k said:

Does your friend have neighbours to the sides of her?  Has she (or you, on her behalf) spoken to them?  If her upstairs neighbour is really so loud, I think it would be likely that they would also hear the noise, even though it's not directly above them. She could also ask the neighbours to the sides of the noisy one - sounds like doors slamming are loud to the sides too. It may help if more than one neighbour contacts the council.  

Has somebody else listened to the noise?  Can you invite somebody you know round?  Maybe at 7am (I'd do that for a friend!).  They may be able to tell you whether it's really that bad.

I'd suggest your friend tries the mouldable ear plugs in the meantime.

Thank you, Rach_k for the advice.

Unfortunately there is no one living on her left, and on her right it is a lift. But she indeed had spoken with her neighbours 2 floor up. And the neighbour did confirm they hearing banging sounds / slashing doors etc on and off. But they live upstairs and the noises were not that bad to them. They are therefore reluctant to get involved with this. Also my friend is not just hearing loud banging sound, slaming doors/windows, but also exaggerated stomping feet, running, dragging something across the floor, rolling sounds of something, machine sounds etc from her upstairs. She had spoken to her downstairs too. But the neighbour downstairs originally thought she was the one making the noises. Again, the noises were not that bad for them so they never complain too. And after learning what had happened, the neighbour downstairs then adviced my friend to speak to the local counciller. 

Even though the council did not capture the noise during their 1st/only visit, but my friend did have evidences to back up her case, the voice recordings + videos. The problems with these evidences are that the sound volume are somehow very low on the phone (really do not know why...) so the council is not willing to accept the voice recordings as evidences. Luckily they are okey with the videos, although they claimed those are normal living noises. 

My friend tried ear plugs/ headphones before. And she had been wearing them every single night for more than a year. But thank you very much for bring it up!

Ditzy_Mitzy

I hate to have to say it but living alone, in particular spending long periods of time alone in a small space, can cause the mind to do all sorts of funny things. 

This isn't to suggest that the noises themselves are entirely a figment of the friend's imagination, but it may be the case that particular external sounds she has heard in the past are manifesting again as auditory hallucinations.  It may also be possible that her brain, for whatever reason, is focussing on otherwise innocuous sounds and amplifying them in the mind's ear.  As a result she is left with the belief that the sounds are more intrusive than they really are, and may be becoming consumed by them.  This would explain why the recordings, such as they are, are quiet and also why the neighbours appear unaffected.

Another thing: if the friend is lacking external stimuli, she may not be using up her reserves of energy.  This tends to lead to low quality sleep, and in particular a tendency to fall into that funny hinterland between sleeping and being awake, where the veil of dreams can be drawn across apparently wakeful normality.  One feels as if one is awake, but experiences the sometimes upsetting sights and sounds of the dream world at the same time.  

Start by checking that the friend is all right.  A worthwhile experiment is to see if alternative accommodation can be found for a few days.  It could even be a cheap hotel; just anywhere that isn't the flat to see what happens.  

TripleH

Is it a purpose built block of flats? (Only read the summary)?

Sound may not travel directly up or down it could come from diagonal properties.

Where we used to live the building had endless issues with people complaining about metal chairs scraping on tile floors. We even had our below neighbour complain about us doing it. Problem was we had wooden chairs which didn't make that noise, it was the flat next door (on our floor).

It 'may' be another neighbour who is adding to the noise woes as well.

andy444

How is she able to work if she can't speak English?

[Deleted User]

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

I hate to have to say it but living alone, in particular spending long periods of time alone in a small space, can cause the mind to do all sorts of funny things. 

This isn't to suggest that the noises themselves are entirely a figment of the friend's imagination, but it may be the case that particular external sounds she has heard in the past are manifesting again as auditory hallucinations.  It may also be possible that her brain, for whatever reason, is focussing on otherwise innocuous sounds and amplifying them in the mind's ear.  As a result she is left with the belief that the sounds are more intrusive than they really are, and may be becoming consumed by them.  This would explain why the recordings, such as they are, are quiet and also why the neighbours appear unaffected.

Another thing: if the friend is lacking external stimuli, she may not be using up her reserves of energy.  This tends to lead to low quality sleep, and in particular a tendency to fall into that funny hinterland between sleeping and being awake, where the veil of dreams can be drawn across apparently wakeful normality.  One feels as if one is awake, but experiences the sometimes upsetting sights and sounds of the dream world at the same time.  

Start by checking that the friend is all right.  A worthwhile experiment is to see if alternative accommodation can be found for a few days.  It could even be a cheap hotel; just anywhere that isn't the flat to see what happens.  

Thank you so much for the help!

Honestly speaking we are also very worried about her mental health. I would definitely chat with her tonight to see if we can stay in a hotel to relax over the weekend. As mentioned above, a lot of us are now moved out of London, and I'd be leaving UK soon. This is why we are now asking for help online e.g what else she can do/try. 

With regards to the noises, not just her, a lot of our friends (me 2) heard them during our visits and we also reported them to her local council. And they were indeed very loud to ears. We tried to help our friend to catch the noises before. Friend A was using a Samsung phone (high end), Friend B was using an Android phone (budgeted), and to our surprise, the noises recorded on the budgeted phone was actually louder than the one recorded in Samsung, although the sound volumes were still very low on both phones. But if we tried to record a conversation, then Samsung was far more better than the budgeted one. Really very confused.....

My friend used to work 6 days a week. She said she was so tired sometimes she felt she could fall asleep while standing on the train (on her way home), and when she finally went to bed and fell asleep sadly she then often woke up by some sudden loud sound.