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Gemini parking solutions Bath - SUCCESS
rufusfrog
Posts: 9 Forumite
Hi I need some help because I have read the Newbie thread and we have already "done it wrong" so not sure how to proceed.
A good friend of mine (T) went to Bath on 8/9/21 to meet up with his father (J). He loooked up a suitable council car park, decided on the Cattle Market car park and they agreed to meet there. T arrived first and parked in the first available spot. J later parked in the space next to him. T followed the instructions on the big blue signs to pay for parking for both of them, using an app, and they enjoyed the day out.
T was then shocked to receive a parking charge notice for £100 about 9 days later from 'Gemini Parking Solutions' claiming he had parked without a permit in the 'Hilton Car Park'. Because he knew he had paid, he assumed that his ticket had got lost in the system, that Gemini were the enforcement agents for the council and either the 'Hilton Car Park' was an informal name for the car park as the Hilton (or Doubletree by Hilton now) was next door - or that they had incorrectly recorded his car as being parked next door outside the Hilton. So he immediately logged on to their appeals system, clicked the option for "I have a ticket/permit" and provided evidence of his purchase from the app.
A few days later they refused the appeal, stating that council tickets were not valid in their car park and that his only option going forward is to appeal to POPLA (so no chance of an early payment reduction if he does). Then he asked me if I had any advice.
The thing is, he had NO IDEA he had parked in a private car park reserved for hotel guests as he had not noticed any signs with that information.
Incidentally, J did not receive a PCN.
As we all live a long way from Bath, going back to check on signage is not an option so we all have to go on is an image from Google streetmap. This is obviously not up to date but helps to set the scene:
There is a large, clear council car park sign in blue on the right, a small, low down, Gemini sign in the left foreground, and (harder to see). a similar one in the middle to the right of the silver car with a P sign above.
Both Gemini signs are very small with the Ts and Cs in tiny font. The one on the left is in an impossible position for a driver in a right-hand drive vehicle to see when entering that car park section. The one in the centre appears to be angled by 90 degrees so could equally well refer to the car park section beyond (which presumably IS the council section as the ticket machines are there. So, based on their appearance and layout, it would not be unreasonable to assume that Gemini is managing the whole car park on behalf of the council, and the signs apply everywhere, i.e. a valid council ticket is a 'permit' to park. And since the council signs are large and clear, to assume that the Gemini signs are subsidiary notices, e.g. limits of liability.
In the picture here is another sign facing into the car park on the left, but I have no idea what it says or whether it was visible when T and J parked. T does remember there was a lot of construction related equipment around, including red portable barriers next to the open barrier to the right of the central signs and he did not see the open barrier as a result of them (these red temporary barriers appear in the background of the photos Gemini sent); so there were no visual clues that the two sections were owned and managed separately (and there is a good chance that one or more signs were obscured on his visit).
Additionally, the PCN seems to be addressed correctly to the keeper and T has already told them by implication that he was the driver.
So I have some questions!
Is it at this stage worth T's time contacting Hilton (Doubletree) either locally or nationally, explaining the lack of clear signage and asking them to have the charge cancelled?
Should we accept that the appeal to Gemini is closed? Since T and J had no idea they were in a private car park, they had no opportunity to make a potentially valid claim of inadequate and confusing signage. Does this matter?
Do we now go to POPLA? I assume, if we do, the main argument is inadequate signage? Are there any other things we should include? For instance, in the POPLA submission, should we ask them to produce the contract to provide parking services to Hilton (or should that have been done at the first appeal)?
Should we make the argument that in a shared car parking lot, with a single off-street entrance, there is extra need and responsibility to clearly mark separately owned sections?
Can we argue that as the signs are visually insignificant (and do not for instance, include an unauthorised parking charge in a clear, large font), they were not seen or read (the council signs appeared to offer all the necessary information), so no contract was formed and therefore no contract has been broken?
Also, should we include the (rather sensationalised, I'm afraid) evidence that Gemini have already been made aware that the signage is unclear and have not taken any steps to remedy the situation? I cannot place a link but the story is on somersetlive. Please search: "woman-squashed-foot-fumes-shocking-5464210". (From May 2021)
Do we have a good case? Any help gratefully received!
A good friend of mine (T) went to Bath on 8/9/21 to meet up with his father (J). He loooked up a suitable council car park, decided on the Cattle Market car park and they agreed to meet there. T arrived first and parked in the first available spot. J later parked in the space next to him. T followed the instructions on the big blue signs to pay for parking for both of them, using an app, and they enjoyed the day out.
T was then shocked to receive a parking charge notice for £100 about 9 days later from 'Gemini Parking Solutions' claiming he had parked without a permit in the 'Hilton Car Park'. Because he knew he had paid, he assumed that his ticket had got lost in the system, that Gemini were the enforcement agents for the council and either the 'Hilton Car Park' was an informal name for the car park as the Hilton (or Doubletree by Hilton now) was next door - or that they had incorrectly recorded his car as being parked next door outside the Hilton. So he immediately logged on to their appeals system, clicked the option for "I have a ticket/permit" and provided evidence of his purchase from the app.
A few days later they refused the appeal, stating that council tickets were not valid in their car park and that his only option going forward is to appeal to POPLA (so no chance of an early payment reduction if he does). Then he asked me if I had any advice.
The thing is, he had NO IDEA he had parked in a private car park reserved for hotel guests as he had not noticed any signs with that information.
Incidentally, J did not receive a PCN.
As we all live a long way from Bath, going back to check on signage is not an option so we all have to go on is an image from Google streetmap. This is obviously not up to date but helps to set the scene:
There is a large, clear council car park sign in blue on the right, a small, low down, Gemini sign in the left foreground, and (harder to see). a similar one in the middle to the right of the silver car with a P sign above.
Both Gemini signs are very small with the Ts and Cs in tiny font. The one on the left is in an impossible position for a driver in a right-hand drive vehicle to see when entering that car park section. The one in the centre appears to be angled by 90 degrees so could equally well refer to the car park section beyond (which presumably IS the council section as the ticket machines are there. So, based on their appearance and layout, it would not be unreasonable to assume that Gemini is managing the whole car park on behalf of the council, and the signs apply everywhere, i.e. a valid council ticket is a 'permit' to park. And since the council signs are large and clear, to assume that the Gemini signs are subsidiary notices, e.g. limits of liability.
In the picture here is another sign facing into the car park on the left, but I have no idea what it says or whether it was visible when T and J parked. T does remember there was a lot of construction related equipment around, including red portable barriers next to the open barrier to the right of the central signs and he did not see the open barrier as a result of them (these red temporary barriers appear in the background of the photos Gemini sent); so there were no visual clues that the two sections were owned and managed separately (and there is a good chance that one or more signs were obscured on his visit).
Additionally, the PCN seems to be addressed correctly to the keeper and T has already told them by implication that he was the driver.
So I have some questions!
Is it at this stage worth T's time contacting Hilton (Doubletree) either locally or nationally, explaining the lack of clear signage and asking them to have the charge cancelled?
Should we accept that the appeal to Gemini is closed? Since T and J had no idea they were in a private car park, they had no opportunity to make a potentially valid claim of inadequate and confusing signage. Does this matter?
Do we now go to POPLA? I assume, if we do, the main argument is inadequate signage? Are there any other things we should include? For instance, in the POPLA submission, should we ask them to produce the contract to provide parking services to Hilton (or should that have been done at the first appeal)?
Should we make the argument that in a shared car parking lot, with a single off-street entrance, there is extra need and responsibility to clearly mark separately owned sections?
Can we argue that as the signs are visually insignificant (and do not for instance, include an unauthorised parking charge in a clear, large font), they were not seen or read (the council signs appeared to offer all the necessary information), so no contract was formed and therefore no contract has been broken?
Also, should we include the (rather sensationalised, I'm afraid) evidence that Gemini have already been made aware that the signage is unclear and have not taken any steps to remedy the situation? I cannot place a link but the story is on somersetlive. Please search: "woman-squashed-foot-fumes-shocking-5464210". (From May 2021)
Do we have a good case? Any help gratefully received!
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Comments
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Who has been issued with the POPLA code, the driver or the keeper whose name was on the PCN?They should try POPLA but only after exhausting the complaint to the Hilton Head Office.
POPLA codes last 32 days.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Has he complained to his MP?You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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Signed up today for this exact reason, I've had a PCN for making the same mistake. The signage is confusing and unclear. Anyway, I've emailed Hilton's head office explaining things to see if they will cancel it
rufusfrog I live close to Bath so if you want I can take up to date pictures of what signage there is3 -
Thanks YakH. Can you tell me which email address you used for Hilton? If more people email it helps all our cases!YakH said:Signed up today for this exact reason, I've had a PCN for making the same mistake. The signage is confusing and unclear. Anyway, I've emailed Hilton's head office explaining things to see if they will cancel it
rufusfrog I live close to Bath so if you want I can take up to date pictures of what signage there is
I think it would be helpful to know what the sign facing the other way says - and if it could have been blocked..1 -
Thanks Coupon-mad - The original PCN was addressed to the keeper but because T thought he had a valid ticket he told them he was also the driver. The appeal rejection that contains the POPLA code is addressed to him personally (no mention of keeper or driver).Coupon-mad said:Who has been issued with the POPLA code, the driver or the keeper whose name was on the PCN?They should try POPLA but only after exhausting the complaint to the Hilton Head Office.
POPLA codes last 32 days.0 -
An additional point. I assumed the car park section that Gemini claim Hilton owns was for guests but from reading reviews there appears to be no guest car park there and guests are directed to use the Podium car park on the other side of the hotel. So I can only assume that it is a staff car park, so there is no question of loss of income (even if it had been full - which it wasn't).0
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And it's certainly not marked as a staff car park!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Update: complained to Hilton via Resolver as we couldn't find a direct email address 18 days ago - have heard nothing back. Sent POPLA appeal 12 days ago as running out of time. Heard from them today:
"Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd - EW have told us they do not wish to contest the appeal. This means that your appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge."
So relieved! So thankful for the help and all the great resources on this site.
Obviously we can't be totally sure if our arguments won the day or Hilton intervened - but for anyone else who is caught out at this site, it is clearly winnable!
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Nice one - a WIN.2
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I've recently had a query about this so just to add that the POPLA appeal number was 4162641005 and I will happily send the text of the appeal to anyone on request.
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