Locating owner of unregistered land

user1977

There might also be practical reasons why nobody has developed the land e.g. utilities underneath, or terrible ground conditions (e.g. mining if it's in the valleys).

topoftherock

Section62 said:

topoftherock said:

I don’t think this land has ever been built on, but I’d need to check old maps to confirm. Where would be the best place to find old maps?

Try here -

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/

topoftherock said:

I don’t want to ask the neighbours, just in case they take my idea. (In this the case, there are only two cottages next to the land).

So what exactly is your idea?  And how would you stop your neighbours doing the same thing as soon as you start doing it?  You have no more entitlement than they do, so if you fear they will steal your plan then it has to be something they will never find out about.

topoftherock said:

The land is relatively flat, rectangular  and I know it’s never been used for at least 30 years. There is a bus stop directly in front, but I see this is an advantage and can’t see why this would prevent building.

Depending on the circumstances, a bus stop might be a barrier to getting a dropped kerb put in, and without that you won't be able to have a vehicular access and off-street parking.  That, often, is a condition of getting planning consent - particularly on busier roads (which might be inferred by there being an existing bus route on this one).

Wow! Thank you so much! I didn’t realise you could access maps going this far back online!  I’ve just found a map from the 50s, and there were actually  4-5 small cottages built on the land. My idea, is to buy the land and sell it on down the line 

AdrianC

topoftherock said:

My idea, is to buy the land and sell it on down the line 

And why do you think that you can add value that the owner can't do themselves?

topoftherock

user1977 said:

There might also be practical reasons why nobody has developed the land e.g. utilities underneath, or terrible ground conditions (e.g. mining if it's in the valleys).

I’ve just found an old map online which shows there were houses there in the 50s   

user1977

topoftherock said:

user1977 said:

There might also be practical reasons why nobody has developed the land e.g. utilities underneath, or terrible ground conditions (e.g. mining if it's in the valleys).

I’ve just found an old map online which shows there were houses there in the 50s   

Well, you might want to try finding out why they're not there any more!

topoftherock

Section62 said:

topoftherock said:

I actually contacted them a couple of months ago, and they told me about land that they still own locally (which didn’t include  this land).

They said they’ve abandoned little bits of scattered land many years ago.  

Therefore, I’m fairly confident they are the owners.

But if they’ve abandoned this land (just like many parts) does that mean it’s highly likely they’ve disposed of the paper title deeds or simply lost them? 

(BiB) Sometimes people will deny owning land because they are fed up with people asking if they can buy it.

(BiI) Nothing can be inferred from them saying they have abandoned land (or don't own it).  It is just as likely they don't want to discuss their private land ownership with you.

In reality, for a big estate, there won't necessarily be deeds or registrations for individual plots of land unless they have previously been sold away from the estate's ownership. If a plot of land is surrounded by land which was/is (previously) owned by the estate then it is a fair assumption that the estate still owns this bit - unless someone can prove otherwise.


"Abandoned" doesn't mean 'no longer owned' - if there is development potential for the land you can be fairly sure ownership rights will be reasserted swiftly, if challenged.

You’ve made some very good points. Thanks for your input 

AdrianC

topoftherock said:

AdrianC said:

There is no other way.

The owner may not even know they're the owner.
The owner is the person in possession of the paper title deeds.
Maybe they've been lost.
Maybe they're in a solicitor's vaults.
Maybe the last person who knew they were the owner has died and they've been inherited by somebody who doesn't know the estate they inherited included that land.
Maybe they died intestate with no heirs and the estate is bona vacantia.
Maybe they were owned by a company that went bankrupt and whose assets were passed to their main creditor, the tax man.

Thanks for the reply. I’m pretty sure the two adjacent cottages had 99-year leases with the estate, before buying their freeholds. Almost everyone I speak to locally bought their freeholds from the same estate (including mine). 

I actually contacted them a couple of months ago, and they told me about land that they still own locally (which didn’t include  this land).

They said they’ve abandoned little bits of scattered land many years ago.  

Therefore, I’m fairly confident they are the owners.

But if they’ve abandoned this land (just like many parts) does that mean it’s highly likely they’ve disposed of the paper title deeds or simply lost them? 

"Abandoned" simply means they don't use it.

They still own it. Perhaps they'd sell it to you, but can't find the paperwork. It's probably not actually on a separate title, just part of the same freehold as the rest of the estate.

But if you think there's value in developing it, what can you add to that that they can't just do directly? Perhaps they don't WANT that land developing?

gettingtheresometime

topoftherock said:

user1977 said:

Some context would help us provide more advice. What does the land look like? Has it ever been used for anything? Have you checked old maps? Asked the neighbours?

If it's large enough for two houses, it seems less likely that it's simply been forgotten about. Or that you're the first to think about it.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I don’t think I’m the first person  to think about it. But where I live (South Wales valleys), you’ll be surprised how much land is still unregistered.

I think a lot of the land  owners (usually trustees of an estate that practically owned all the local land when almost all houses had original 99-year leases)  abandoned bits of land scattered around these valleys; after the vast majority of people bought their freeholds in the 80s and 90s. 

I don’t think this land has ever been built on, but I’d need to check old maps to confirm. Where would be the best place to find old maps?

I don’t want to ask the neighbours, just in case they take my idea. (In this the case, there are only two cottages next to the land). 

The land is relatively flat, rectangular  and I know it’s never been used for at least 30 years. There is a bus stop directly in front, but I see this is an advantage and can’t see why this would prevent building. 

Can I suggest before you do anything, you have a look at what's involved at building houses, especially in Wales.

topoftherock

AdrianC said:

topoftherock said:

My idea, is to buy the land and sell it on down the line 

And why do you think that you can add value that the owner can't do themselves?

Well, the owner could definitely make some money out of it. The owner (the trustee)  doesn’t even live in the U.K these days, and their solicitors don’t have offices  in the local area. So, I guessed that’s  why they’ve “abandoned” this piece of land and other land in  the area (although they own them).

They had  so much  land up until the 80s/90s  I guess they couldn’t  keep up with how much they had.

Another simple reason, is that nobody has ever shown an interest and  contacted  them, because they don’t know who owns it.

I think I will contact their solicitor, explain that there were houses on this land 50 odd  years ago, and see if they can confirm it’s their land and  find the paper title deeds. I would offer them a fair price, so it will definitely benefit the trust. I may not get planning permission for years, or maybe not get any at all. That’s the risks i’m wiling to take. 

AdrianC

So you're asking them to sell to you for a below-market value on the basis that they don't really need it...?