ECP Unfair ticket Popla appeal

laifi

Hi there, I received an unfair ticket from Euro Car Parks. I entered one of their car parks in Manchester city centre which had signs stating pay and display. After taking time to park, the park was full and I had to wait for a driver who having difficulties with manoeuvring out of the bay. My wife even went there to help the driver. Anyway, after the other car left, I stopped at the bay and went to pay for the ticket. The ticket machines were covered and there as a sign saying not in use and asking people to pay by phone. So, I got my mobile and I tried to pay. Called the number and the automated voice recognition wouldn’t recognise my number plate. I then went online and tried to make a payment online. However, I could not get an account created because it was saying that my mobile number was already in use in the system. I don’t recall ever using this system before. Anyway, in the end, unable to purchase a pay and display ticket, I drove out of the car park and wen to park somewhere else. Days later I received a NtK asking for £100 payment. The NtK say I entered 12.44 and left 13.05. During all this time inside the car park I was trying to purchase a pay and display ticket. I was really annoyed because were the machines working, I would have had to go through this. It is not my fault. I did leave the car park as soon as I realised I would not be able to park there.

I wrote to ECP appealing and explaining everything that happened. See my appeal letter below. I also included photos of the car park which clearly state pay and display. So I entered the car park expecting to be able to buy a ticket to pay and display. Had I know it was pay by phone before I entered I would never had gone in. I also included a witness declaration with my wife confirming my statement. I included photos of my mobile showing call logs talking to the number provided by the pay by phone (one lasting 7 minutes), as well as photos of my browser history showing that I tried to pay.

Surprise! ECP just refused my appeal. They did not address my challenges. They just said I entered and left the car park and have not purchased a valid pay and display ticket. Pay up now.

So, I would like to ask if anyone could give me some insight on how to proceed. I now can appeal to Popla. However, I am not sure what else to say. I was honest and explained everything that happened to ECP. They did care. Now, reading the posts here I am concerned that if I appeal to Popla with the same mindset it will be refused also. It looks like successful appeals are more based on technicalities then from really honest explanations.

Anyway, here is the appeal I used for the ECP. Do you think I could use the same to appeal to Popla? Are there any suggestions to improve and give me a bit more chances?

 

19/08/2021

Euro Car Park

30 Dorset Square

London NW1 6QJ

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Parking Charge Notice – Notice to Keeper Ref. Number: XXXXXXXXXX

Vehicle registration number: XXXXXX

 

This letter is a formal challenge to the issue of your Parking Charge Notice - Notice to Keeper as set out in the current BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice B.22

 

You issued me with a parking ticket on 04/08/2021 but I believe it was unfairly and unlawfully issued. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

 

• The alleged contravention did not occur

Quite simply, we never made use of the car park. This is due to the fact that the pay and display machines available in the car park were not in use. They were covered and out of reach. This was not what we expected, since there were signs at the entrance and all over the car park stating ‘pay and display’. So, the driver entered the car park expecting to find a working pay and display machine. However, the pay and display machines at the car park were out of order. See attached photos showing the machines covered and the signage clearly stating ‘pay and display’ as proof of my claim.

After the vehicle entered the car park, the driver stopped and went to the pay and display machines to purchase a ticket to display. However, upon arrival at the pay and display machines, the driver noticed that the machines were not in use (see photo evidence attached). That was unexpected, since signage at the entrance and throughout the car park clearly state ‘pay and display’ (see photo evidence enclosed). There was a little sign saying pay by phone by the side of the machines. That was not what the driver or any of the passengers expected, since the signage at the entrance of the car park, as well as spread across the car park clearly state ‘pay and display’. So, the driver tried to call the phone number given in the small sign 0330 400 7275. However, the number provided went to an automated answering machine and despite the driver’s many efforts to get the vehicle’s details through and purchase a ticket to display, the automated system did not recognise the car’s number plate. Please, see photo of the driver’s phone call log clearly showing the calls made to the above number. Please note that the calls were made at the same day and time described at the Notice to the Keeper sent to me.

Then, the driver tried to use the website provided in the small sign besides the out of order pay and display machines, to see if we could get a ticket to display in order to park in the aforementioned car park. Again, after a few trials the driver could not get the online system to work. The website refused to let the driver create an account and pay for a pay and display ticket. It seems the phone number provided by the driver was already in use. The system required that the driver log in. However, there was no login details as the driver had never used that car park before, or has ever created any account with Euro Car Park. Please, see screenshot of the driver’s mobile phone showing numerous entries to the pay by phone website.

So, after trying to park in the Euro Car park, and not being able to get a pay and display ticket, the driver was left with no option but to leave the aforementioned car park without making use of the car park facilities, and to find parking somewhere else. During the time the vehicle was inside the car park, not the driver or any of its passengers left the car park.   

 

 

• There was insufficient signage

The car park in question has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued illegally. Please see attached evidence, with photos showing the signs stating ‘pay and display’. However, as mentioned above, the machines to pay and get a ticket to display were not in use (photo evidence also provided). There is no mention in the signage at the entrance about the pay by phone system in use. It is not until one enters in the car park, stop the vehicle and goes to the ticket machines to try and pay for a ticket to display that he or she becomes aware of the need to use a phone to pay for a ticket. Therefore, the signage in the car park is misleading and does not reflect the operational system in place. Moreover, the signage leads drivers to enter the car park believing that they can pay using the pay and display machines, however, that is not the case. Once one enters the car park, the camera then captures the number plate. Now, when the driver goes to the pay and display machines and discovers that they are not in use, if he or she wants to leave the Euro Car Park and park somewhere else, whether because they have no phone or simply because they cannot use their phone, a parking ticket is then generated. That is clearly unfair and illegal.

 

• The vehicle was not parked on the land in question

You issued a ticket for supposedly breaking your parking restrictions yet the vehicle was not parked in the car park above mentioned. Please see attached evidence, showing that despite entering the car park, the vehicle was not able to park there. As explained above, the driver was misguided by the signage at the entrance of the car park (see photo evidence enclosed), and therefore expected to find a working pay and display machine at the car park. However, the pay and display machines were out of order (see photos enclosed). After entering the car park and discovering that the machines were out of order, the driver decided to leave the car park without making use of the car park facility. Please note that none of the vehicle’s passengers or the driver left the car park during the time the car was inside the car park and the driver was trying to purchase a ticket.

 

·         Mitigating circumstances

There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was inside the car park and the charge should be waived for this reason. Please see attached evidence, which shows that the car park has narrow roads. At the day and time in which the vehicle entered the car park, the place was full. After entering the car park, the driver found another vehicle manoeuvring out of a parking bay. However, because the parking was full and the roads are narrow, the motorist of the vehicle leaving the parking bay was having difficulties with manoeuvring out of the bay. So, the driver of our vehicle had to wait for the other motorist to manoeuvre out before being able to safely proceed. It took a while for the motorist of the leaving vehicle to manoeuvre out. Then, after waiting for the other vehicle to safely leave, we managed to get through and stopped our vehicle. Now, as stated above, for the driver’s surprise, the pay and display machines were not in use. There was a small sign by the machines asking for payments to be made by phone. That was unexpected, since signage at the entrance and throughout the car park clearly state ‘pay and display’ (see photo evidence enclosed). Anyway, having gone through the trouble of entering the car and having waited a considerable amount of time to find passage because of the leaving vehicle, the driver decided to try the phone system to purchase a ‘pay and display’ ticket. However, as mentioned above, the driver did not manage to get the phone system to recognise the vehicle’s number plate, and the online system has not allowed for an account to be created. Please, see the enclosed evidence showing screenshots of the driver’s mobile which shows the calls made to the phone displayed by the machines 0330 400 7275 on the same date and time stated in the Notice to the Keeper sent to me. Please, note that the call lasted above 7 minutes. See also screen photos of the driver’s mobile web browser history showing multiples entries on the pay by phone website. Those were the various times that the driver tried to purchase a ticket using the website provided. These evidences prove my claim that the vehicle was inside the car park only the necessary time to safely allow passage for the other vehicle leaving the car park and for the time the driver was trying to purchase a ‘pay and display’ ticket. The vehicle immediately left the car park once the driver noticed that the machines were not in use and that purchasing a pay and display ticket was not possible. During this time, none of the vehicle’s passenger or the driver has left the car park. I have included also a witness declaration

 

If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

 

If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.

 

Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Thank you and any help or advice is really appreciated.

Le_Kirk

If it is Euro Car Parks Ltd, did they send you a POPLA code with your rejection letter?  If so, now is the time to submit a POPLA appeal.  See the third post on the NEWBIE sticky for POPLA help.

laifi

Thank you so mLe_Kirk said:

If it is Euro Car Parks Ltd, did they send you a POPLA code with your rejection letter?  If so, now is the time to submit a POPLA appeal.  See the third post on the NEWBIE sticky for POPLA help.

Thank you. I read the threads and loads of pages. Do you think I could use the same argument I have here, which is the truth? 
I noticed that this person have, after consulted here, appealled to Popla in a similar circunstance, where the machines were out of use and pay by phone requested. His appeal was refused by Popla. However, he did stay in the car park for 7 hours. 
Now, I noticed he used loads of arguments and a long letter as recomended. However, EPC or Popla adjudicator was phase out by it. So, I am not sure. I feel really upset for the ticket is clearly unfair as you can see above. However, I think it is even more upsetting if I end up having to pay £100 instead the £60 descounted. Do you think it is worth appealing or just pay up?

laifi

laifi said:

Thank you so mLe_Kirk said:

If it is Euro Car Parks Ltd, did they send you a POPLA code with your rejection letter?  If so, now is the time to submit a POPLA appeal.  See the third post on the NEWBIE sticky for POPLA help.

Thank you. I read the threads and loads of pages. Do you think I could use the same argument I have here, which is the truth? 
I noticed that this person have, after consulted here, appealled to Popla in a similar circunstance, where the machines were out of use and pay by phone requested. His appeal was refused by Popla. However, he did stay in the car park for 7 hours. 
Now, I noticed he used loads of arguments and a long letter as recomended. However, EPC or Popla adjudicator was phase out by it. So, I am not sure. I feel really upset for the ticket is clearly unfair as you can see above. However, I think it is even more upsetting if I end up having to pay £100 instead the £60 descounted. Do you think it is worth appealing or just pay up?

I am sorry I missed the link for the ECP: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6060904/euro-car-parks-pcn-anpr/p3 

D_P_Dance

IMO insisting on paying by phone is an unfaitr term in a consumer contact.  Read this and complain to your MP>

https://www.hants.gov.uk/business/tradingstandards/consumeradvice/goodsandservices/unfairtermsconsumer n

Le_Kirk

laifi said:

Thank you so mLe_Kirk said:

If it is Euro Car Parks Ltd, did they send you a POPLA code with your rejection letter?  If so, now is the time to submit a POPLA appeal.  See the third post on the NEWBIE sticky for POPLA help.

Thank you. I read the threads and loads of pages. Do you think I could use the same argument I have here, which is the truth? 
I noticed that this person have, after consulted here, appealled to Popla in a similar circunstance, where the machines were out of use and pay by phone requested. His appeal was refused by Popla. However, he did stay in the car park for 7 hours. 
Now, I noticed he used loads of arguments and a long letter as recomended. However, EPC or Popla adjudicator was phase out by it. So, I am not sure. I feel really upset for the ticket is clearly unfair as you can see above. However, I think it is even more upsetting if I end up having to pay £100 instead the £60 descounted. Do you think it is worth appealing or just pay up?

It is always best to use all the arguments in the NEWBIE sticky third post but start off with your strongest argument first.

Coupon-mad

But the person who lost at POPLA surely didn't pay!  You don't pay just because of losing at POPLA,

laifi

Le_Kirk said:

laifi said:

Thank you so mLe_Kirk said:

If it is Euro Car Parks Ltd, did they send you a POPLA code with your rejection letter?  If so, now is the time to submit a POPLA appeal.  See the third post on the NEWBIE sticky for POPLA help.

Thank you. I read the threads and loads of pages. Do you think I could use the same argument I have here, which is the truth? 
I noticed that this person have, after consulted here, appealled to Popla in a similar circunstance, where the machines were out of use and pay by phone requested. His appeal was refused by Popla. However, he did stay in the car park for 7 hours. 
Now, I noticed he used loads of arguments and a long letter as recomended. However, EPC or Popla adjudicator was phase out by it. So, I am not sure. I feel really upset for the ticket is clearly unfair as you can see above. However, I think it is even more upsetting if I end up having to pay £100 instead the £60 descounted. Do you think it is worth appealing or just pay up?

It is always best to use all the arguments in the NEWBIE sticky third post but start off with your strongest argument first.

Thank you so much. Let me ask you. I have searched and read a lot in order to understand how to make an appeal. My strongest argument, as I understand it, is that I entered a car park with signs saying pay and display. It took a little while to find a place to stop because there was on gentleman struggling to manoeuvre out of the car park. Once a stopped I went to the machine to pay and get a ticket to display and the machines were not in use. There was a sign saying pay by phone. I tried to pay by phone, 7 min call on the automated call, and I did not work. Then tried on the website.  It didnt work either. So, as I could not get a ticket to pay and display I returned to the car and drove out to park somewhere else.

Now,  and appealling to Popla can I just say what happened or they do not really care? Would all that above not mount to frustration of contract?
I am struggling to write all this without really identifying myself as the driver. I have the logs from my mobile showing I call the the number they provided, I have the browser history showing I tried to pay. 

I am sorry for troubling you all again, but I am not really sure what to do? Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!!!

laifi

Coupon-mad said:

But the person who lost at POPLA surely didn't pay!  You don't pay just because of losing at POPLA,

Thank you Coupon-mad. I read here that recently someone lost the court and was ordered to pay over £300 (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6155269/court-claim-received-need-a-little-reassurance-that-im-in-the-right-direction/p8 ).  It all seems a lottery, would they sue? would you get a fair judge? 
Well, hope they get the law on these sorted soon.  

Umkomaas

I am struggling to write all this without really identifying myself as the driver. 

If the ECP Notice to Keeper (NtK) was compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) - and I would guess it probably was - there is little to gain by ducking and diving as to who the driver of the vehicle was. 

Date of parking event?
Date of Issue shown on the NtK?
Is there a paragraph with '.....if after 28/29 days of the date given ....' or similar wording?

Le_Kirk

With POPLA you tell it like it was.  Your strongest point is that the parking company failed in the management of the car park by not ensuring that motorists could park quickly and easily and then be able to purchase a ticket, something you could not do because the PPC's equipment failed - NOT your fault.