Section 20 Notice - Completely Unnecessary Work

SeagullFTB

We received a notice of section 20 major works to our block of flats a few months ago. We are a leaseholder and the freehold is managed by a managing agent. We have now received details of the works to be done and the costs involved. Bare in mind that the building was only built 4 years ago. We have been asked to pay just over £2k each, totalling at almost £33k for the entire building.

We agree that some of the work needs to be done, including internal decoration as the walls have become quite damaged over time with people moving in and out. The door to our bin storage also needs to be replaced, but this has actually been "fixed" about 6 -10 times in 4 years, each time with an inadequate temporary measure put in place. They used an untreated wooden door externally, which then swells and shrinks as the weather changes and either becomes completely stuck closed or entirely impossible to close. Rather than change the door, the have repeatedly shaved the door down or even added a small amount of timber to the edge of the door to try and resize it.

But over 50% of the costs relate to the cleaning of the guttering and UPVC windows, which are accompanied by a £11k scaffolding bill. This works feels very unnecessary. The UPVC has slightly discoloured (no more than you would expect naturally) but nothing that is particularly noticeable or in need to of urgent repair. The cost of this cleaning equates to around £1k per leaseholder. This work isn't needed and just seems like a way for the managing agent to inflate the cost so that they can increase their own fees alongside it.

Do we have any grounds to oppose this work based on the fact that it is not actually required? We also want to object to paying for a door to be fixed that we have been charged for multiple times before (within the service charges) but never fixed adequately.

Thank you.

Titus_Wadd

Sorry I have no useful knowledge but doesn't the fabric of the building still have the remainder of the 10 year building warranty (not covering wear and tear to the decor obviously).  A bottle of Cif and a cloth on the upvc?

(I know that's a whole other fight to get anything done under warranty.  I'm not helping again!)

Slithery

Titus_Wadd said:

A bottle of Cif and a cloth on the upvc?

I presume that scaffolding would still be needed to reach it.

madteapot

Section 20 notice is supposed to explain why any of the list of works is necessary. Does your notice explain why UPVC and/or guttering needs replacing? If it was only built 4 years ago then there should be all sorts of guarantees like NHBC and the FENSA approved 10 years of original installer guarantee, etc. In regards to guttering, is the quote for cleaning or replacing/repairing? 

In terms of next steps, group together with as many leaseholders as possible as that will make things easier. Determine how far in the section 20 process you are exactly by reading this useful guide. If the notice doesn't contain reasons explaining why the work are necessary then write to the company and ask for it.

m0bov

What's in your lease? Are the gutters blocked? Do you have a window cleaner? If so, why are they not cleaning the frames? Who is responsible for the windows?

eddddy

Gutters, window frames, doors etc almost certainly won't be covered by an NHBC warranty (or similar) after the first 2 years.

In years 3 to 10 it's likely only to be major structural components that are covered.

I guess the windows might have come with some kind of kind of 5 or 10 guarantee from the manufacturers for the builder, but the guarantee won't necessarily have passed to the freeholder or leaseholders.

But if the problem is that they're dirty, no warranty would cover that anyway.


If you think it's not 'reasonable' to clean the gutters and windows, you can say so in your response to the section 20 notices and encourage others to as well. And/or you could ask if they've considered a cherry-picker as a cheaper alternative.

Perhaps saying that you'll challenge it at a a tribunal on the basis that it's not 'reasonable' will make the management co think more carefully about it.

daveyjp

Cleaning windows, frames and gutters is not unreasonable after a few years, in fact I'd want windows doing at least twice a year.

I would press them on why it needs scaffold and ask for evidence at what alternatives have been considered.  For high blocks cherry pickers or rope based cleaning techniques are probably much cheaper.

SeagullFTB

Thanks for all the responses.

I am in the process of disputing the necessity of cleaning the UPVC window frames and the only response I've received is "they need cleaning as they haven't been cleaned in almost four years". The windows themselves are cleaned monthly as part of our service charges. I don't believe that the UPVC is excessively dirty in any respect. They are fully reachable from the inside due to the way the windows/balcony doors open, and after discussing it with our neighbours, it seems that half of us actually clean the outside UPVC ourselves on a semi-regular basis. 

I will continue to dispute the work and if necessary, consider going to first tier tribunal. I believe that a very large portion of the cost could be reduced by using a cherry picker instead of scaffolding and this option isn't being considered.

I am also fully inspecting last years service charge accounts. As a qualified accountant, I can do this very thoroughly. I have already noticed that the bin storage door has been fixed 4 times in 7 months. When I argued this, they simply replied "each repair was carried out was necessary and done by a fully competent contractor". As it was a very similar repair each time, I'd argue that each job was done inadequately which lead to further costly works being needed.

Racky_Roo

How many floors does your building have? In my last flat, we had 3 stories and the gutters were cleaned via some sort of bendy pole thing which power washed them out and also did the facia boards too. Ours were cleaned twice a year (just before winter and then in spring) as we had a lot of very mature trees by us so they got mossy and full of leaves quickly. Could you suggest they look at this solution instead? Saves on scaffolding costs.