Property possibly without Title Deeds

JonMitchell

Hi

Just a quick question, if an advertised property, on Rightmove by estate agent, Title Deeds cannot be found at Land Registry, what are the implications of buying such property?

It may imply the property:

. Has not been registered at Land Registry
. Manual error of Land Registry due to age of property (reckon 1920s built)

Obviously seller needs to have a copy of Title Deed for sale. 

If indeed TD has not been registered at Land Registry, usually what sort of time frame can a TD be retrospectively applied for and approved?    

user1977

The most likely implication is that the seller has title deeds but the property has not yet been registered at the Land Registry. The property doesn't need to be registered before it is sold.

p00hsticks

user1977 said:

The property doesn't need to be registered before it is sold.

But if it isn't then you (and your solicitor) need to be 100% sure that the seller actually owns what they are selling you.... i.e. has all the relevant original title deeds in their possession. you can then use these to register the property

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-application-registration-fr1

sheramber

One of my neighbours bought a house that had not beed registered.

18 months later he was still waiting for the Land Registry to register it.

canaldumidi

Until compulsory registristation was gradually introduced in the 1970s - 1990s, ALL property sales took place based on paper deeds. The process for unregistered property has not changed.

Some of the cheaper conveyancing 'warehouses' may base their pricing and procedures on registered property, but any half-decent solicitor will have no problem.

Sistergold

Watched something on property scams and how to avoid them the other day. In as much as this might not be a scam you don’t really want to make it your problem. They should not be trying to sell without resolving the land registry issue. It’s too much money to gamble in this way. Solicitors are just human and might miss something and later you might have a big problem on your hands. 

Land_Registry

JonMitchell said:

Hi

Just a quick question, if an advertised property, on Rightmove by estate agent, Title Deeds cannot be found at Land Registry, what are the implications of buying such property?

It may imply the property:

. Has not been registered at Land Registry
. Manual error of Land Registry due to age of property (reckon 1920s built)

Obviously seller needs to have a copy of Title Deed for sale. 

If indeed TD has not been registered at Land Registry, usually what sort of time frame can a TD be retrospectively applied for and approved?    

People refer to title deeds in a variety of contexts. If land/property is registered then the title deeds are the register and title plan. They are held digitally by us so can always be ‘found’
Unregistered land/property means the owner has the old deeds/documents showing how it’s been owned over time ending with the last deed, a conveyance, when they bought it. 

Registration is not based on age of what’s been built on the land so it’s irrelevant that it’s a 1920’s house. If the seller bought it several decades ago then they did so before it needed to be registered in that area. 

If the original deeds/documents have been lost it’s unlikely your conveyancer will proceed until it’s registered. If you are taking a mortgage your lender will almost certainly say No too. 

The land/property can be registered 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
And once submitted the applicant can apply for expedition to reduce the wait time from 9+ months to a few weeks. Everything then hinges on it being in order of course. 

I would ask your conveyancer/the seller to clarify and confirm exactly what the registered position is and if unregistered have the deeds been lost. Then go from there 

JonMitchell

sheramber said:

One of my neighbours bought a house that had not beed registered.

18 months later he was still waiting for the Land Registry to register it.

Blimey that is longer than a probate sale!

JonMitchell

Land_Registry said:

JonMitchell said:

Hi

Just a quick question, if an advertised property, on Rightmove by estate agent, Title Deeds cannot be found at Land Registry, what are the implications of buying such property?

It may imply the property:

. Has not been registered at Land Registry
. Manual error of Land Registry due to age of property (reckon 1920s built)

Obviously seller needs to have a copy of Title Deed for sale. 

If indeed TD has not been registered at Land Registry, usually what sort of time frame can a TD be retrospectively applied for and approved?    

People refer to title deeds in a variety of contexts. If land/property is registered then the title deeds are the register and title plan. They are held digitally by us so can always be ‘found’
Unregistered land/property means the owner has the old deeds/documents showing how it’s been owned over time ending with the last deed, a conveyance, when they bought it. 

Registration is not based on age of what’s been built on the land so it’s irrelevant that it’s a 1920’s house. If the seller bought it several decades ago then they did so before it needed to be registered in that area. 

If the original deeds/documents have been lost it’s unlikely your conveyancer will proceed until it’s registered. If you are taking a mortgage your lender will almost certainly say No too. 

The land/property can be registered 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
And once submitted the applicant can apply for expedition to reduce the wait time from 9+ months to a few weeks. Everything then hinges on it being in order of course. 

I would ask your conveyancer/the seller to clarify and confirm exactly what the registered position is and if unregistered have the deeds been lost. Then go from there 

Just spoken to the estate agent, simply asking them if the seller does indeed have any physical copy of deeds in place.

"We have loads of viewings that have been arranged for viewing at this property" was the snobbish answer - somehow hinting to me that they have loads of interests, if I am concern about title deed then I can bxgger off.

After pressing ea bit further, they went further, "It will be registered and it will be faster than your conveyancing period".

Again I press for a direct and simple answer is there any hard copy deeds available, "It is a inherited property"....and finally "no, no physical copy available".

Worth pursuing further??   

canaldumidi

Look the EA probably has no idea.. Hence rather than give you a categorical answer he is saying what he is saying.

If you decde toproceed, ask your solicitor to verify this with the seller's solicitor before running up costs on other work- chances are there are paper deeds and registration can happen either before, or after, Completion-does not really matter which.

I'd be more concerned by "It is a inherited property". Who is selling? The Executer for the deceased's Estate? Has Probate been granted? You can check with the Probate Office.

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Or has ownership passed from the deceased to the Beneficiary who is now selling (in which case there would be compulsory registration......!)

JonMitchell

canaldumidi said:

Look the EA probably has no idea.. Hence rather than give you a categorical answer he is saying what he is saying.

If you decde toproceed, ask your solicitor to verify this with the seller's solicitor before running up costs on other work- chances are there are paper deeds and registration can happen either before, or after, Completion-does not really matter which.

I'd be more concerned by "It is a inherited property". Who is selling? The Executer for the deceased's Estate? Has Probate been granted? You can check with the Probate Office.

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Or has ownership passed from the deceased to the Beneficiary who is now selling (in which case there would be compulsory registration......!)

Thank you, this added probate sale may be a knock off effect. How does one inherit a property if there is no deeds presence.

I think the other pressing issue here is mortgage lender - they certainly, as Land_Registry commented, will likely not offer any mortgage until registered. Plus how does the current executor prove the property is theirs...

If there has been ownership passed on, compulsory registration implies there should be a registered copy at land registry, which clearly there is NIL atm.