Dismissal Appeal Request

Austin0710

Hi, I hope somebody could offer advice on the following,

I was dismissed from my job for gross misconduct and I have appealed.

In my appeal I asked for a different manager to chair the appeal as my relationship with my current manager was strained and it was common knowledge that she made all disciplinary decisions and her managers followed her instructions.

She has also been involved with the investigation by seeing evidence before the investigation and I feel that I would stand a better chance with a manager from another department.

Last week HR emailed asking why I wanted to change manager and I need to submit my reasons.

Am I within my right's to ask for another appeal manager within the business, who will be completely impartial, and if so how can I word a response?

Many Thanks

 





 

Jillanddy

I am confused by what you are saying. Your manager would normally see evidence - in fact they would more often than not prepare the evidence - before a hearing and during / before the investigation. And it may be "common knowledge" that she made decisions that her own managers followed - what actual evidence do you have of that? Because what you are claiming is that more senior managers than your own former manager are corrupt and too weak to make their own decisions. That is very definitely not going to go down well as an argument.

Assuming the employer is large enough then the appeal should be heard by one or more managers who have not been previously involved. The chances of your excluding your own former manager from giving evidence or being involved at all are vanishingly small. 

What did you do?

Undervalued

Austin0710 said:

Hi, I hope somebody could offer advice on the following,

I was dismissed from my job for gross misconduct and I have appealed.

In my appeal I asked for a different manager to chair the appeal as my relationship with my current manager was strained and it was common knowledge that she made all disciplinary decisions and her managers followed her instructions.

She has also been involved with the investigation by seeing evidence before the investigation and I feel that I would stand a better chance with a manager from another department.

Last week HR emailed asking why I wanted to change manager and I need to submit my reasons.

Am I within my right's to ask for another appeal manager within the business, who will be completely impartial, and if so how can I word a response?

Many Thanks

 





 

Well you are certainly within your rights to ask but you cannot force them to.

If the appeal is rejected and you take them to an Employment Tribunal they would be expected to have made a reasonable attempt to act fairly. There is no exact definition of what is fair, that is for the tribunal to decide.

At one time there were statutory procedures which had to be followed. Now there are simply guidelines. Following the guidelines is certainly one way of conducting a reasonably fair process but it is not the only way.

An employer's disciplinary / appeal hearing is not a court of law. A dismissal is fair (in law) if the employer has a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place and, if so, that dismissal is "within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer might choose".

Austin0710

The manager named on my appeal is not my direct line manager, but has been involved in my case from the start, I believe this means she’s not impartial. 

I’m asking for another manager from a different department to view the evidence and chair my appeal as they would be impartial.

oh_really

What does the disciplinary policy have to say on the matter?
I would expect a hearing to be convened with a new chair. Was the original chair also involved in the investigation?

Inform HR your reasons are an attempt to ensure the process is as free from contamination as possible, and you expect to get a fair hearing without external pressures.

What is your case that wasn't raised at the original hearing (no point in rehashing the original hearing), or are you arguing flawed process?

Were you guilty of gross misconduct?

Jillanddy

Austin0710 said:

The manager named on my appeal is not my direct line manager, but has been involved in my case from the start, I believe this means she’s not impartial. 

I’m asking for another manager from a different department to view the evidence and chair my appeal as they would be impartial.

That's optimistic.  But you can ask.  I'd be very careful about making any allegations that you cannot prove though.  The best defence is to a disciplinary is proving you didn't do it. If you did it then your chances of winning are slim. What did you do? 

Austin0710

oh_really said:

What does the disciplinary policy have to say on the matter?
I would expect a hearing to be convened with a new chair. Was the original chair also involved in the investigation?

Inform HR your reasons are an attempt to ensure the process is as free from contamination as possible, and you expect to get a fair hearing without external pressures.

What is your case that wasn't raised at the original hearing (no point in rehashing the original hearing), or are you arguing flawed process?

Were you guilty of gross misconduct?

Thanks for your response.

I have been dismissed for falsification of records.
I'm basing my appeal on the fact that the decision was too harsh.
Other members of staff have falsified the exact same records with no punishment - not even an investigation. Occurances have also been covered up by management too!

oh_really

Since I wasn't involved in your case so I don't know if the decision was proportionate or not, however I wouldn't rush into comparing your situation to the outcome of others, these outcomes should be confidential. Management are unlikely to receive well any allegations by you that you have been dealt with harshly in comparison with others unless you have legitimately obtained evidence that demonstrates a complete breakdown in the proportionality of your sanction.

I'm perhaps guessing management have been looking to exit you out the door and have found the route to do so here. I would perhaps focus on looking for flaws in their application of the process and question if the sanction was just and proportionate in all the circumstances.

Was the process followed by that stipulated in the policy. I've had some success in the past at appeal stage by focusing in process non compliance, however, always better to get a positive outcome ate the original hearing.

Did you have union representation? 

Re the falsification of records, what are we talking about here, a few bucks on travelling expenses or £££££'s being "lost in the system"?

General_Grant

Austin0710 said:

oh_really said:

What does the disciplinary policy have to say on the matter?
I would expect a hearing to be convened with a new chair. Was the original chair also involved in the investigation?

Inform HR your reasons are an attempt to ensure the process is as free from contamination as possible, and you expect to get a fair hearing without external pressures.

What is your case that wasn't raised at the original hearing (no point in rehashing the original hearing), or are you arguing flawed process?

Were you guilty of gross misconduct?

Thanks for your response.

I have been dismissed for falsification of records.
I'm basing my appeal on the fact that the decision was too harsh.
Other members of staff have falsified the exact same records with no punishment - not even an investigation. Occurances have also been covered up by management too!

Actions of others doing "the exact same" doesn't count.
What sort of records might be rather more relevant.  Were these the tick & initial the chart confirming the office toilets have been checked type or records regarding controlled drugs for example?

Austin0710

I have evidence that my outcome was not proportionate in regards to other offences that have occurred.

you are correct that they have been looking to exit me for a while and this looks to be their route.

thanks for your replies, it gives me food for thought. 

Dakta

Personally I'd go into recovery mode and start thinking beyond your current role.

Obviously we don't know the severity of what you've done, but a couple of flags for me:

- It seems your integrity has been  questioned, and it doesn't appear this was incorrect
- Other people do it too, which means the integrity of peers is compromised
- You say the management have covered things up too, meaning the integrity of management is compromised


You've also suggested that the company may be wanting to exit you, so we have to look at what the situation is:

a)  a company that (potentially) wants rid of an employee
b) the employee has through an action given a reason for the company to dismiss
c) no staff with integrity to go fight your corner
c1) though this may be a moot point due to point B anyway

I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick but I'd start thinking about where to go post dismissal as for me I think that'd be a more constructive use of time

Problem with falsification of records and similar is it's a trust issue, which can be a big deal.