UPS import duties agreed to be paid by sender & being chased by ControlAccount

visidigi

noitsnotme said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Interesting. Some couriers carry ‘post’ for businesses, even though Royal Mail do the ‘last mile’ of the delivery.  What specifically defines Royal Mail as a postal operator but excludes couriers?

user1977 said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Says who? DHL tried arguing they weren't, and lost:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/dhl-v-ofcom.pdf

The license to import & operate in the UK does not allow for the mainstream couriers to operate postal services. Those same mainstream couriers operate their own payment/deferment processes. Ofcom's challenge was indeed upheld based on domestic services, excluding any brokerage, deferment or importation elements of their business (DHL's business at the time of the case was also very different to that of today).

visidigi

noitsnotme said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Interesting. Some couriers carry ‘post’ for businesses, even though Royal Mail do the ‘last mile’ of the delivery.  What specifically defines Royal Mail as a postal operator but excludes couriers?

The license under which they operate.

noitsnotme

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Interesting. Some couriers carry ‘post’ for businesses, even though Royal Mail do the ‘last mile’ of the delivery.  What specifically defines Royal Mail as a postal operator but excludes couriers?

user1977 said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Says who? DHL tried arguing they weren't, and lost:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/dhl-v-ofcom.pdf

The license to import & operate in the UK does not allow for the mainstream couriers to operate postal services. Those same mainstream couriers operate their own payment/deferment processes. Ofcom's challenge was indeed upheld based on domestic services, excluding any brokerage, deferment or importation elements of their business (DHL's business at the time of the case was also very different to that of today).

This document seems to specifically state that other couriers are postal operators.  It even says they don’t need a licence…

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06763/SN06763.pdf

“Other postal operators

Much of Royal Mail competition is in the parcels market rather than in the letters market. The parcel’s market is highly competitive and growing whereas Royal Mail operates a near monopoly over final mile letter deliveries in the UK.

There are a number of well-known brands which operate in competition to Royal Mail, for example Hermes, Yodel, and DPD.”

“3.2 Regulatory conditions placed on other postal operators

Operators may provide postal services without the need for any licence or prior authorisation by Ofcom. However, all postal operators must have a complaints procedure that is “transparent, simple and inexpensive”

noitsnotme

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Interesting. Some couriers carry ‘post’ for businesses, even though Royal Mail do the ‘last mile’ of the delivery.  What specifically defines Royal Mail as a postal operator but excludes couriers?

user1977 said:

visidigi said:

noitsnotme said:

evansguy123 said:

Hmm ok.  Can you point me at the relevant legislation because this seems crazy!

Yes, here you go…

Section 105, part 3 of the Postal Services Act 2000...

”(3)Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

Doesn't apply to couriers. They aren't postal operators.

Says who? DHL tried arguing they weren't, and lost:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/dhl-v-ofcom.pdf

The license to import & operate in the UK does not allow for the mainstream couriers to operate postal services. Those same mainstream couriers operate their own payment/deferment processes. Ofcom's challenge was indeed upheld based on domestic services, excluding any brokerage, deferment or importation elements of their business (DHL's business at the time of the case was also very different to that of today).

The high court agreed with Ofcom and they appear to have considered DHLs international services as part of the case.  Point 70 onwards at the following link but also plenty of other reference to international services throughout the document.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/dhl-v-ofcom.pdf

Some points to note…

”In my judgment none of these features of its international business are inconsistent with the conclusion that DHL is a postal operator.”

“My conclusion is therefore that DHL is a postal operator within the meaning of the 2011 Act.”

The hearing was only 5 years ago so I can’t see that DHLs service was ‘very different’ from today.

Nearlyold

What no one seems to have mentioned is that if the goods were ordered, invoiced and paid for in Dec 20 there should not have been an import charge if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

sheramber

Nearlyold said:

What no one seems to have mentioned is that if the goods were ordered, invoiced and paid for in Dec 20 there should not have been an import charge if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

 if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

Which is the crucial point. Customs do not know when an item was paid for so automatically charge.

Nearlyold

sheramber said:

Nearlyold said:

What no one seems to have mentioned is that if the goods were ordered, invoiced and paid for in Dec 20 there should not have been an import charge if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

 if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

Which is the crucial point. Customs do not know when an item was paid for so automatically charge.

Yes it's a crucial point which is why I mentioned it. Unfortunately the thread seems to have wandered down the path of debating whether UPS or other carriers are entitled to pay any Duties/VAT on behalf of the OP and subsequently recover their outlay from the OP by default, rather than considering the strong possibility that no Duty/VAT was due anyway (if the Invoice was pre 01/01/21) which the OP should be able to recover from HMRC.

evansguy123

Nearlyold said:

sheramber said:

Nearlyold said:

What no one seems to have mentioned is that if the goods were ordered, invoiced and paid for in Dec 20 there should not have been an import charge if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

 if the correct info was on the Customs Declaration completed by the Italian Seller

Which is the crucial point. Customs do not know when an item was paid for so automatically charge.

Yes it's a crucial point which is why I mentioned it. Unfortunately the thread seems to have wandered down the path of debating whether UPS or other carriers are entitled to pay any Duties/VAT on behalf of the OP and subsequently recover their outlay from the OP by default, rather than considering the strong possibility that no Duty/VAT was due anyway (if the Invoice was pre 01/01/21) which the OP should be able to recover from HMRC.

On this point, I placed the order on 26th December 2020, my card was charged on the 28th December 2020 but it wasn't shipped until 11th January.   There is no invoice in any of the Emails - I suspect there was some papework with the delivery but I have long since thrown that away...