Share dividend tax increase

najan49

solidpro said:
We were being given dozens of test kits from both our children's schools (branded NHS) and even when lab-certified and checked PCR determined that 2 of us definitely had Coronavirus (corroborated with primary symptoms), the home tests never ever showed a positive.

And it was me personally taking all the tests (both home kits and lab-certified PCR), so I know I was taking good samples. 

The use of LTFs is not a guaranteed way to determine that someone is clear of coronavirus, but it does at least catch a meaningful number and I'm not sure what your plan would be if they weren't used or what that cost would be.

It’s more than that though - the PCR test is extremely sensitive and will detect viral RNA at very low levels - far below the point at which a person could transmit the virus to someone else. The LFDs are far less sensitive but this is a benefit - they are good at detecting a viral load high enough to transmit to someone else while not detecting low viral loads which are probably not very risky to others.

csgohan4

Daliah said:

eskbanker said:

Daliah said:

p00hsticks said:

Daliah said:

Prism said:

Daliah said:

eskbanker said:

Daliah said:

Prism said:

It affects me as a company director paying myself dividends but I don't pay national insurance. Also, dividend tax only starts after the tax free allowance (plus the £2k) rather than the NI which begins at the secondary threshold. So I will pay a little less than a PAYE employee. I also won't need to pay the employer NI increase.

Seems like a reasonably fair tax overall that gets everyone to pay a little.

@Prism: if you don't pay NI, are you foregoing your state pension rights?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-national-insurance-contributions/rates-and-allowances-national-insurance-contributions highlights that you can earn up to the primary threshold of £797 per month without paying NI, but as long as your income exceeds the lower earnings limit (£520/month) then "Employees do not pay National Insurance but get the benefits of paying [such as pension rights]", so many will calibrate their earnings accordingly....

@Prism seems to be self-employed though

I am a director of my own limited company and so can pay myself as Eskbanker suggests.

So are you saying you get state pension rights without ever paying NI?

Yes - anyone earning between the Lower Earnings Limit and the Primary Threshold gets NI credits without actually paying any NI (as do people claiming certain benefits such as Child Benefit, Univeral Credit, ESA and JSA)

I know that.

I also know that LEL and PT were designed to help people who are genuinely on low earnings.

They were not intended for people to evade paying NI but I note with interest that there are people on the MSE forum who appear to endorse such tax evasion.

It's clearly not tax evasion, but could be perceived as tax avoidance - best to understand the crucial difference between these terms before making comments like that....

I very well understand the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. I deliberately chose the term evasion, in the same vein as those who deliberately orchestrate their earnings in such a way that they evade paying NI.

I know that people can go to great lengths to explain why their tax evasion is actually only tax avoidance. Legally they can probably win this argument unless they are exceptionally dim. Morally their actions are rather questionable, to say the least. The fact that they don't care that their actions are considered questionable make them actually quite reprehensible.

Have you conveniently left out the disadvantages of being a small business director of a limited company?

-No sick pay
-minimal access to the furlough scheme
-no one to cry to when your company is struggling
-no redundancy pay 
-No paid annual leave
-No Workers rights, you can be let go as a contractor much more easily than a PAYE worker
-Pay your own employer's pension contributions as well as employee
-IR35 risks

If anything maybe you should write to your local MP complaining about the tax structure of limited companies. If you want limited companies to be very much on par with PAYE workers, which sadly the gap is much more narrow, it would remove what little incentive to do so. Dividends used to be tax free up until you reach the higher income tax band and not limited to 2k for example. 

If you stifle the Limited company benefits further, what's the point  of people setting up their own business, you will also stifle innovation, entrepreneurship and control over ones own business as a few advantages

If you want to talk about morality, what about the Right to buy scheme still being in place, where councils are losing millions for selling social housing stock a large discount and taking more accommodation for the needy out.

How about the lack of NI/ tax increase for land lords as an example?

How about benefit fraud and those using benefits for non essential items such as cigarettes and alcohol

how about by choice non vaccincated people taking up ICU beds, should they be charged an extra levy?

lozzy1965

csgohan4 said:

Daliah said:

eskbanker said:

Daliah said:

p00hsticks said:

Daliah said:

Prism said:

Daliah said:

eskbanker said:

Daliah said:

Prism said:

It affects me as a company director paying myself dividends but I don't pay national insurance. Also, dividend tax only starts after the tax free allowance (plus the £2k) rather than the NI which begins at the secondary threshold. So I will pay a little less than a PAYE employee. I also won't need to pay the employer NI increase.

Seems like a reasonably fair tax overall that gets everyone to pay a little.

@Prism: if you don't pay NI, are you foregoing your state pension rights?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-national-insurance-contributions/rates-and-allowances-national-insurance-contributions highlights that you can earn up to the primary threshold of £797 per month without paying NI, but as long as your income exceeds the lower earnings limit (£520/month) then "Employees do not pay National Insurance but get the benefits of paying [such as pension rights]", so many will calibrate their earnings accordingly....

@Prism seems to be self-employed though

I am a director of my own limited company and so can pay myself as Eskbanker suggests.

So are you saying you get state pension rights without ever paying NI?

Yes - anyone earning between the Lower Earnings Limit and the Primary Threshold gets NI credits without actually paying any NI (as do people claiming certain benefits such as Child Benefit, Univeral Credit, ESA and JSA)

I know that.

I also know that LEL and PT were designed to help people who are genuinely on low earnings.

They were not intended for people to evade paying NI but I note with interest that there are people on the MSE forum who appear to endorse such tax evasion.

It's clearly not tax evasion, but could be perceived as tax avoidance - best to understand the crucial difference between these terms before making comments like that....

I very well understand the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. I deliberately chose the term evasion, in the same vein as those who deliberately orchestrate their earnings in such a way that they evade paying NI.

I know that people can go to great lengths to explain why their tax evasion is actually only tax avoidance. Legally they can probably win this argument unless they are exceptionally dim. Morally their actions are rather questionable, to say the least. The fact that they don't care that their actions are considered questionable make them actually quite reprehensible.

Have you conveniently left out the disadvantages of being a small business director of a limited company?

-No sick pay
-minimal access to the furlough scheme
-no one to cry to when your company is struggling
-no redundancy pay 
-No paid annual leave
-No Workers rights, you can be let go as a contractor much more easily than a PAYE worker
-Pay your own employer's pension contributions as well as employee
-IR35 risks

If anything maybe you should write to your local MP complaining about the tax structure of limited companies. If you want limited companies to be very much on par with PAYE workers, which sadly the gap is much more narrow, it would remove what little incentive to do so. Dividends used to be tax free up until you reach the higher income tax band and not limited to 2k for example. 

1.  If you stifle the Limited company benefits further, what's the point  of people setting up their own business, you will also stifle innovation, entrepreneurship and control over ones own business as a few advantages

2.  If you want to talk about morality, what about the Right to buy scheme still being in place, where councils are losing millions for selling social housing stock a large discount and taking more accommodation for the needy out.

3.  How about the lack of NI/ tax increase for land lords as an example?

4.  How about benefit fraud and those using benefits for non essential items such as cigarettes and alcohol

5.  how about by choice non vaccincated people taking up ICU beds, should they be charged an extra levy?

As a contractor I was paid vastly more than I was as a permanent employee for doing exactly the same job.  There were contractors I worked with who were paid vastly more than I was!  In my opinion the contractor rate was set to cover the additional expenses and lack of job security mentioned above.  It was not the ability to pay oneself a minimum salary and get hold of the rest of the money from ones company by other more tax efficient ways.  Not illegal, as mentioned, but I know what I think is morally acceptable and I know what most people who work as permanent employees would think.
As to the other points above I have numbered my answers:
1.  I don't know the numbers, but I would hazard a guess that most limited companies are owned by individuals performing standard services not innovation or entrepreneurship
2.  Completely off subject, there are plenty more arguably immoral things in the world, that doesn't mean that another immoral thing is acceptable!
3.  See 2.
4.  You want to control how people spend their money too?
5.  Yes.

soulsaver

This is the dividend tax increase thread?

lozzy1965

soulsaver said:

This is the dividend tax increase thread?

Nope.  The dividend tax increase item within the "Savngs and Investments" thread.  It's a bit like the bitcoin item, and the premium bond item.  A lot of people have an opinion, so the item gets lots of responses.  Although most of the 'answers' here so far at least loosely relate to the original question of "Is this a good tax" with comment as to why it is or isn't. It probably should have been asked in some tax thread, but I only ever look here, and I love the banter.

Eco_Miser

lozzy1965 said:

soulsaver said:

This is the dividend tax increase thread?

Nope.  The dividend tax increase item within the "Savngs and Investments" thread.  It's a bit like the bitcoin item, and the premium bond item. 

No, it's the dividend tax increase thread within the "Savings and Investments" board.

The Bitcoin and Premium Bonds things are also threads.

I refer you to the home page of the fourm for official usage of the terms.

Alexland

Prism said:

Shall we have a go at anyone who uses salary sacrifice next to reduce their NI payments?

You could have a go at my wife who uses salary sacrifice to get close to the personal allowance (above min wage as she is part time) so only pays a few hundred in NI/tax then contributes most of her remaining income into a SIPP to get tax relief on money that she generally never paid tax on with the intent of drawing much of it tax free within her personal allowance when she retires early. Then I give her some of my money to put into her LISA to get another grand and her half of the child benefit is also nearly a grand so in total she is probably net sponging around £4k pa from the taxpayer despite earning an above average respectable package for the hours she works yet still building entitlement to state pension.

lozzy1965

Eco_Miser said:

lozzy1965 said:

soulsaver said:

This is the dividend tax increase thread?

Nope.  The dividend tax increase item within the "Savngs and Investments" thread.  It's a bit like the bitcoin item, and the premium bond item. 

No, it's the dividend tax increase thread within the "Savings and Investments" board.

The Bitcoin and Premium Bonds things are also threads.

I refer you to the home page of the fourm for official usage of the terms.

Thank you for putting me right.  I assume soulsavers original question should also have been "board" then, otherwise the comment would be pointless?  Or I have totally missed the point - which is a distinct possibility

Section62

solidpro said:

booneruk said:
I never understood this - are they saying if we hadn't built up testing capacity of over a million a day and instead did no testing that we'd have had the same outcome?

Why was it the WHO said Test, Test, Test?

Either way, £37bn is absolutely ludicrous.

Test test test with good equipment sure. That isn't what happened. If track and trace covered the cost of billions of home testing kits then that was also a total waste of money and plastic. We were being given dozens of test kits from both our children's schools (branded NHS) and even when lab-certified and checked PCR determined that 2 of us definitely had Coronavirus (corroborated with primary symptoms), the home tests never ever showed a positive.

And it was me personally taking all the tests (both home kits and lab-certified PCR), so I know I was taking good samples. 

A total waste of taxpayer's money.

Who paid for those "lab-certified" PCR tests?

How much does each "lab-certified" PCR test cost?

What budget will have paid for the millions of other "lab-certified" PCR tests done between the start of the pandemic and April 2022?

Eco_Miser

lozzy1965 said:

Eco_Miser said:

lozzy1965 said:

soulsaver said:

This is the dividend tax increase thread?

Nope.  The dividend tax increase item within the "Savngs and Investments" thread.  It's a bit like the bitcoin item, and the premium bond item. 

No, it's the dividend tax increase thread within the "Savings and Investments" board.

The Bitcoin and Premium Bonds things are also threads.

I refer you to the home page of the fourm for official usage of the terms.

Thank you for putting me right.  I assume soulsavers original question should also have been "board" then, otherwise the comment would be pointless?  Or I have totally missed the point - which is a distinct possibility

I believe soulsavers question was technically correct, and was a comment on thread drift.