Pension has finally landed - As an insistent client acting against advice -*DOORS CLOSED 03/09/2021*

Diplodicus

How would you know at the outset whether a client was "insistent"?

HappyHarry

Diplodicus said:

How would you know at the outset whether a client was "insistent"?

If a client tells you they intend to transfer regardless of the recommendation, then it would be a big give away.

Diplodicus

In most cases, it is unclear as to whether a transfer should be recommended or not until a huge amount of work has been completed. This is the nature of DB transfer work.

Your words.

HappyHarry

Spot on. 

So a client commenting at the beginning of the process that they intend to transfer anyway would ring alarm bells.

Diplodicus

For example, in my case, I thought that I had a strong case to transfer but could see the merit of testing my preference against a PTS. 

It was only on learning about the special tax and inheritance advantages of transferring, that I gained conviction that this was definitely my best course. My PTS advised against transfer but I saw through his self interest and managed to transfer my DB pension after what some glib posters would describe a "faff." 

But if I came as a client to you today, and you recommended not to transfer - as I am sure you would because it is safer and I offer no prospect of needing "ongoing advice" - you would not care if I could then make that transfer. You'd settle for the c £5k fee. That's right, isn't it?

HappyHarry

Diplodicus said:

For example, in my case, I thought that I had a strong case to transfer but could see the merit of testing my preference against a PTS. 

It was only on learning about the special tax and inheritance advantages of transferring, that I gained conviction that this was definitely my best course. My PTS advised against transfer but I saw through his self interest and managed to transfer my DB pension after what some glib posters would describe a "faff." 

But if I came as a client to you today, and you recommended not to transfer - as I am sure you would because it is safer and I offer no prospect of needing "ongoing advice" - you would not care if I could then make that transfer. You'd settle for the c £5k fee. That's right, isn't it?

If you came to me, I would charge you a fee for the advice, and give you the best advice I could. If a transfer is the right thing for you, then I would recommend it. As mentioned before, I have recommended more transfers than I have to retain a DB pension. 

As also mentioned, a good PTS is not concerned about "safety", they are only concerned with doing what is right for the client. 

I have no fears that recommendations I have made, and will make, will come back to bite me significantly. This is because I have done a thorough job, and given thorough advice appropriate for my clients at the time I have made the advice. 

The need for ongoing advice is irrelevant. My recommendations would be no different if you required ongoing advice or not. You would be employing me to give advice, that is what my fee is for. If you didn't want me to charge further fees for ongoing advice, I would not be disappointed. In fact, it would be easier if you told me that up front so that I could deal with you as a self-investor. This would mean that you tell me where you are intending to invest, and I can build that into my recommendations. I have no concern with this scenario, as there are many people that do not want to use me for advice in managing their investments. 

You seem to imagine that good PTSs are only interested in taking a fee, getting ongoing fees, not recommending transfers for "safety" reasons, and generally putting their own greed first.

I need to inform you that this is not generally the case, at least certainly not amongst those PTSs that I know, and do the job very well.

I have, of course, no idea what advice I may have given you, had you been one of my clients. There is a possibility that my advice would have been different to that which you received.

Diplodicus

HappyHarry said:

Diplodicus said:

For example, in my case, I thought that I had a strong case to transfer but could see the merit of testing my preference against a PTS. 

It was only on learning about the special tax and inheritance advantages of transferring, that I gained conviction that this was definitely my best course. My PTS advised against transfer but I saw through his self interest and managed to transfer my DB pension after what some glib posters would describe a "faff." 

But if I came as a client to you today, and you recommended not to transfer - as I am sure you would because it is safer and I offer no prospect of needing "ongoing advice" - you would not care if I could then make that transfer. You'd settle for the c £5k fee. That's right, isn't it?

You seem to imagine that good PTSs are only interested in taking a fee, getting ongoing fees, not recommending transfers for "safety" reasons, and generally putting their own greed first.

I need to inform you that this is not generally the case, at least certainly not amongst those PTSs that I know, and do the job very well.

I

 The FCA doesn't share your confidence in the integrity of financial advisers' advice, otherwise they would not have had to act after their findings in 2018:

We are disappointed to have found that less than 50% of the advice we reviewed was suitable.

In other words, the advice clients paid for was worse than a coin toss.

Not sure where the needle has shifted to now, but it makes a mockery of the premise that officials put in charge of the process won't seek to help themselves. 

That's why the process was doomed from the outset. Now, with circumstances granting advisers ultimate power over whether a DB pension transfer goes forward, it is difficult in all conscience advise anyone to embark on the process.

HappyHarry

Diplodicus said:

HappyHarry said:

Diplodicus said:

For example, in my case, I thought that I had a strong case to transfer but could see the merit of testing my preference against a PTS. 

It was only on learning about the special tax and inheritance advantages of transferring, that I gained conviction that this was definitely my best course. My PTS advised against transfer but I saw through his self interest and managed to transfer my DB pension after what some glib posters would describe a "faff." 

But if I came as a client to you today, and you recommended not to transfer - as I am sure you would because it is safer and I offer no prospect of needing "ongoing advice" - you would not care if I could then make that transfer. You'd settle for the c £5k fee. That's right, isn't it?

You seem to imagine that good PTSs are only interested in taking a fee, getting ongoing fees, not recommending transfers for "safety" reasons, and generally putting their own greed first.

I need to inform you that this is not generally the case, at least certainly not amongst those PTSs that I know, and do the job very well.

I

 The FCA doesn't share your confidence in the integrity of financial advisers' advice, otherwise they would not have had to act after their findings in 2018:

We are disappointed to have found that less than 50% of the advice we reviewed was suitable.

In other words, the advice clients paid for was worse than a coin toss.

Not sure where the needle has shifted to now, but it makes a mockery of the premise that officials put in charge of the process won't seek to help themselves. 

That's why the process was doomed from the outset. Now, with circumstances granting advisers ultimate power over whether a DB pension transfer goes forward, it is difficult in all conscience advise anyone to embark on the process.

Hence the huge number of advisers now no longer able, or wanting to, advise on DB transfers.

There is now a far smaller pool of far better advisers. 

You appear to be trying to imply that all or most advisers remaining in this area are poor quality money grabbers.

You are wrong. 

Those that require good advice will find it.

Those that want to transfer regardless of the good advice they receive will struggle.

HappyHarry

Just to note, you are of course picking statistics to fit your argument. What the FCA said in 2018 was;

As part of our review of the 18 firms’ processes we reviewed the advice they gave on 154 transfers. Our suitability findings were as follows:

• suitable: 74 (48.1%)
• unsuitable: 45 (29.2%)
• unclear: 35 (22.7%)

This compares with results across our previous phases of work in this area which found 49% of advice was suitable, 33% unsuitable and 18% unclear.

Diplodicus

HappyHarry said:

Diplodicus said:

HappyHarry said:

Diplodicus said:

For example, in my case, I thought that I had a strong case to transfer but could see the merit of testing my preference against a PTS. 

It was only on learning about the special tax and inheritance advantages of transferring, that I gained conviction that this was definitely my best course. My PTS advised against transfer but I saw through his self interest and managed to transfer my DB pension after what some glib posters would describe a "faff." 

But if I came as a client to you today, and you recommended not to transfer - as I am sure you would because it is safer and I offer no prospect of needing "ongoing advice" - you would not care if I could then make that transfer. You'd settle for the c £5k fee. That's right, isn't it?

You seem to imagine that good PTSs are only interested in taking a fee, getting ongoing fees, not recommending transfers for "safety" reasons, and generally putting their own greed first.

I need to inform you that this is not generally the case, at least certainly not amongst those PTSs that I know, and do the job very well.

I

 The FCA doesn't share your confidence in the integrity of financial advisers' advice, otherwise they would not have had to act after their findings in 2018:

We are disappointed to have found that less than 50% of the advice we reviewed was suitable.

In other words, the advice clients paid for was worse than a coin toss.

Not sure where the needle has shifted to now, but it makes a mockery of the premise that officials put in charge of the process won't seek to help themselves. 

That's why the process was doomed from the outset. Now, with circumstances granting advisers ultimate power over whether a DB pension transfer goes forward, it is difficult in all conscience advise anyone to embark on the process.

Those that want to transfer regardless of the good advice they receive will struggle.

And how. The way forward looks all but impassable. 
But you don't care about that. You're going to go on taking their money, on the basis that they submit their will to yours.