Occupational Health report

Undervalued

Jillanddy said:

Undervalued said:

ringer said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

ringer said:

Sorry long post.
The company I've been employed by for 16 years are moving to a 24/7 shift pattern across my site. As a consequence I'd be required to work a 4 on 4 off 12 hour shifts involving nights and days. I currently work a 8 hour double day shift that doesn't require night work.

I have had health issues with my heart so had concerns regarding the new shift pattern. 

The HR department made a occupational health appointment and the resulting report advised against 12 hr shifts and night work and also that my condition was probably covered by a disability act.

I've had a interview with HR.
I didn't have Union representation because my rep was of sick, but chose to continue with the meeting. I was informed that reduced hours in my current position wasn't an option. They mentioned a couple of positions that I could apply for, which I don't think I'd get. The only option really was the possibility of working in the warehouse driving a forklift truck, but it would still be a 12 hr shift. I don't have a license and have no previous warehouse experience and it's giving me anxiety thinking about it.
The end of the meeting I was informed of the possibility of termination of employment due to ill health.
I'm led to believe they're required to make reasonable adjustments because of the disability act. 
I'm going to contact Acas for their advice but was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on my predicament?
Thank you.

 

You’re capable of doing your current role, it’s the change that’s the problem.  A capability dismissal happens when someone can no longer do the job that they’re employed to do. 

Potentially if there isn’t a suitable role it could be a redundancy situation.  Your current role (8 hour shift) is no longer going to be available, it’s changing.   I’d be interested to know what your contract states about working hours/shifts.  

I’d definitely be seeking advice from the union.  If your rep can’t advise they should be able to put you in touch with someone who can.  Might also be worth contacting the acas helpline to discuss your options.  

I did mention redundancy and was told it didn't apply because my position was still there. I will contact Acas.
Interesting comment regarding capability dismissal.
Thank you.

I don't totally agree with thebrexitunicorn's comment about capability dismissal.

If adjustments are needed to allow you to fulfil your role and they go beyond what would be regarded as "reasonable adjustments" the firm could refuse and look towards a capability dismissal. If that were to happen it would then come down to whether an employment tribunal agreed with their assessment of what is reasonable.

Either way it is not a redundancy situation but of course the firm could offer you a settlement agreement to "go quietly" in exchange for a sum of money and signing away any legal claim.

I also agree with this. Capability and redundancy are very different. But an employer might "settle" for redundancy if you also agree to make life simpler for themselves. But is losing your job, no matter what the terms, acceptable to you? Because if you fight for your job you might have to go to tribunal and you might lose - but also winning rarely nets the sort of payouts that people expect either. I think it would be useful for you to think about what it is that you want from this. Obviously (perhaps) your first choice is the job/shifts you want. But if that isn't possible, what is next on the list?

BTW, it is entirely possible for the employer paying for your training to be a reasonable adjustment, so not having the licence for FLT's isn't really a barrier if they will retrain you - and might be a useful thing to have if you ended up back in the employment market.

Indeed.

Just to add, a tribunal has no real power to order your reinstatement even if you win. Yes, theoretically they can "order" it but it has little meaning as the firm can just ignore the instruction in which case they would very likely have to pay a little extra compensation as an alternative. 

ringer

Spoke to Acas they suggested that due to the disability, I put in a application for flexible working to coincide with with the start of the 12 hour shifts.
 I do want to carry on working in my current role whilst not working nights or 12 hour shifts.

I don't want to to work 12 hour shifts on a FLT. I would leave if it come to that.

General_Grant

Maybe suggest someone might like a part-time (4-hour) job (even a formal job share).

ringer

I've asked for part- time, which they rejected.  I suggested job share, they said they would need someone with similar skills and even then it would be complicated to implement.

ringer

Jillanddy said:

Undervalued said:

ringer said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

ringer said:

Sorry long post.
The company I've been employed by for 16 years are moving to a 24/7 shift pattern across my site. As a consequence I'd be required to work a 4 on 4 off 12 hour shifts involving nights and days. I currently work a 8 hour double day shift that doesn't require night work.

I have had health issues with my heart so had concerns regarding the new shift pattern. 

The HR department made a occupational health appointment and the resulting report advised against 12 hr shifts and night work and also that my condition was probably covered by a disability act.

I've had a interview with HR.
I didn't have Union representation because my rep was of sick, but chose to continue with the meeting. I was informed that reduced hours in my current position wasn't an option. They mentioned a couple of positions that I could apply for, which I don't think I'd get. The only option really was the possibility of working in the warehouse driving a forklift truck, but it would still be a 12 hr shift. I don't have a license and have no previous warehouse experience and it's giving me anxiety thinking about it.
The end of the meeting I was informed of the possibility of termination of employment due to ill health.
I'm led to believe they're required to make reasonable adjustments because of the disability act. 
I'm going to contact Acas for their advice but was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on my predicament?
Thank you.

 

You’re capable of doing your current role, it’s the change that’s the problem.  A capability dismissal happens when someone can no longer do the job that they’re employed to do. 

Potentially if there isn’t a suitable role it could be a redundancy situation.  Your current role (8 hour shift) is no longer going to be available, it’s changing.   I’d be interested to know what your contract states about working hours/shifts.  

I’d definitely be seeking advice from the union.  If your rep can’t advise they should be able to put you in touch with someone who can.  Might also be worth contacting the acas helpline to discuss your options.  

I did mention redundancy and was told it didn't apply because my position was still there. I will contact Acas.
Interesting comment regarding capability dismissal.
Thank you.

I don't totally agree with thebrexitunicorn's comment about capability dismissal.

If adjustments are needed to allow you to fulfil your role and they go beyond what would be regarded as "reasonable adjustments" the firm could refuse and look towards a capability dismissal. If that were to happen it would then come down to whether an employment tribunal agreed with their assessment of what is reasonable.

Either way it is not a redundancy situation but of course the firm could offer you a settlement agreement to "go quietly" in exchange for a sum of money and signing away any legal claim.

I also agree with this. Capability and redundancy are very different. But an employer might "settle" for redundancy if you also agree to make life simpler for themselves. But is losing your job, no matter what the terms, acceptable to you? Because if you fight for your job you might have to go to tribunal and you might lose - but also winning rarely nets the sort of payouts that people expect either. I think it would be useful for you to think about what it is that you want from this. Obviously (perhaps) your first choice is the job/shifts you want. But if that isn't possible, what is next on the list?

BTW, it is entirely possible for the employer paying for your training to be a reasonable adjustment, so not having the licence for FLT's isn't really a barrier if they will retrain you - and might be a useful thing to have if you ended up back in the employment market.

FLT job is a 12 hour shift, so  probably a reasonable adjustment for them, but not for me.

Takeaway_Addict

Why are you talking to ACAS when you have a union?

thebrexitunicorn

Undervalued said:

ringer said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

ringer said:

Sorry long post.
The company I've been employed by for 16 years are moving to a 24/7 shift pattern across my site. As a consequence I'd be required to work a 4 on 4 off 12 hour shifts involving nights and days. I currently work a 8 hour double day shift that doesn't require night work.

I have had health issues with my heart so had concerns regarding the new shift pattern. 

The HR department made a occupational health appointment and the resulting report advised against 12 hr shifts and night work and also that my condition was probably covered by a disability act.

I've had a interview with HR.
I didn't have Union representation because my rep was of sick, but chose to continue with the meeting. I was informed that reduced hours in my current position wasn't an option. They mentioned a couple of positions that I could apply for, which I don't think I'd get. The only option really was the possibility of working in the warehouse driving a forklift truck, but it would still be a 12 hr shift. I don't have a license and have no previous warehouse experience and it's giving me anxiety thinking about it.
The end of the meeting I was informed of the possibility of termination of employment due to ill health.
I'm led to believe they're required to make reasonable adjustments because of the disability act. 
I'm going to contact Acas for their advice but was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on my predicament?
Thank you.

 

You’re capable of doing your current role, it’s the change that’s the problem.  A capability dismissal happens when someone can no longer do the job that they’re employed to do. 

Potentially if there isn’t a suitable role it could be a redundancy situation.  Your current role (8 hour shift) is no longer going to be available, it’s changing.   I’d be interested to know what your contract states about working hours/shifts.  

I’d definitely be seeking advice from the union.  If your rep can’t advise they should be able to put you in touch with someone who can.  Might also be worth contacting the acas helpline to discuss your options.  

I did mention redundancy and was told it didn't apply because my position was still there. I will contact Acas.
Interesting comment regarding capability dismissal.
Thank you.

I don't totally agree with thebrexitunicorn's comment about capability dismissal.

If adjustments are needed to allow you to fulfil your role and they go beyond what would be regarded as "reasonable adjustments" the firm could refuse and look towards a capability dismissal. If that were to happen it would then come down to whether an employment tribunal agreed with their assessment of what is reasonable.

Either way it is not a redundancy situation but of course the firm could offer you a settlement agreement to "go quietly" in exchange for a sum of money and signing away any legal claim.

Undervalued said:

ringer said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

ringer said:

Sorry long post.
The company I've been employed by for 16 years are moving to a 24/7 shift pattern across my site. As a consequence I'd be required to work a 4 on 4 off 12 hour shifts involving nights and days. I currently work a 8 hour double day shift that doesn't require night work.

I have had health issues with my heart so had concerns regarding the new shift pattern. 

The HR department made a occupational health appointment and the resulting report advised against 12 hr shifts and night work and also that my condition was probably covered by a disability act.

I've had a interview with HR.
I didn't have Union representation because my rep was of sick, but chose to continue with the meeting. I was informed that reduced hours in my current position wasn't an option. They mentioned a couple of positions that I could apply for, which I don't think I'd get. The only option really was the possibility of working in the warehouse driving a forklift truck, but it would still be a 12 hr shift. I don't have a license and have no previous warehouse experience and it's giving me anxiety thinking about it.
The end of the meeting I was informed of the possibility of termination of employment due to ill health.
I'm led to believe they're required to make reasonable adjustments because of the disability act. 
I'm going to contact Acas for their advice but was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on my predicament?
Thank you.

 

You’re capable of doing your current role, it’s the change that’s the problem.  A capability dismissal happens when someone can no longer do the job that they’re employed to do. 

Potentially if there isn’t a suitable role it could be a redundancy situation.  Your current role (8 hour shift) is no longer going to be available, it’s changing.   I’d be interested to know what your contract states about working hours/shifts.  

I’d definitely be seeking advice from the union.  If your rep can’t advise they should be able to put you in touch with someone who can.  Might also be worth contacting the acas helpline to discuss your options.  

I did mention redundancy and was told it didn't apply because my position was still there. I will contact Acas.
Interesting comment regarding capability dismissal.
Thank you.

I don't totally agree with thebrexitunicorn's comment about capability dismissal.

If adjustments are needed to allow you to fulfil your role and they go beyond what would be regarded as "reasonable adjustments" the firm could refuse and look towards a capability dismissal. If that were to happen it would then come down to whether an employment tribunal agreed with their assessment of what is reasonable.

Either way it is not a redundancy situation but of course the firm could offer you a settlement agreement to "go quietly" in exchange for a sum of money and signing away any legal claim.

My point is that Ringer is capable of fulfilling his/her current role.   Unfortunately, that role is unlikely to exist soon.  The work still exists but the change in hours and shifts mean that the role no longer does.  This is quite possibly a redundancy situation if the employer has no suitable alternative to offer. 

The suggestion that you submit a flexible working request is worth considering.  It has to be submitted as a statutory request, your union should be able to advise. Failing this Acas can explain the process.  

TELLIT01

ringer said:

FLT job is a 12 hour shift, so  probably a reasonable adjustment for them, but not for me.

And therein lies the crux of the problem.  An employer will generally want to do as little as possible by way of 'reasonable adjustment' but the employee will want all possible adjustments whether or not they are practical for the employer.

This isn't a swipe at the OP, simply pointing out the different directions the two parties are coming from.

74jax

I know you said your union rep is off sick, have you kept the union up to speed with everything still?
Have the appointed you someone else?
Remember you have paid for this union advice, use it, it is what it is for. 
Keep them involved in all communication and update them on your chats with ACAS.
The union would be my number 1 call, ACAS 2nd.

ringer

Thank you for all the replies.
I have spoken to my Union rep and was accompanied by him in my first meeting.
He is now off sick and frankly didn't have much expertise. The negotiations to to turn the plant in to a 24/7 operation have been long and drawn out and a couple of reps stepped down as a consequence.
I'm arranging for a full time official to attend my next meeting.
As for Acas and even posting on these forums is to inform myself.