Survey result - potentially unsupported chimney

Barmy_Army_92

Hi, 

Our homebuyers survey for a Victorian Terrace highlighted that a chimney breast is present in the loft area but has been removed in the lower rooms, it wasn't clear how it was supported. The surveyor recommended that our solicitor check for planning permission. The local searches just came back; no planning permission on record. 

Our solicitor suggested two courses of action: 

1.  Get the seller to apply for retrospective planning permission
2. Indemnity insurance

The solicitor advised against option 1. Knowing that indemnity insurance is largely useless, I feel like seeking some advice from people who have perhaps had a similiar experience and what they did. The survey did not flag up any structural concerns related to this chimney. 

I have requested that the solicitor try to find out when this work was carried out, without this information I don't feel I can make an informed decision. 

K_S

@barmy_army_92 Are you sure the survey indicates no structural concerns? Generally speaking, unless the work has been done according to building regs, the danger of an unsupported chimney is that a large amount of masonry could collapse. Usually the survey recommends that either the chimney breast in the roof space be removed, or provided with additional support as required by the building regs.

I've had 2 clients in the past few months pull out of purchases for similar findings and the seller was unwilling to reduce the price by an amount commensurate to the work required to bring it in line with building regs requirements.

Afaik, removing chimmey breasts does not require planning permission but does require that the structural works comply with building regs.

lonibra

OP keep in mind that if the chimney is against the party wall and the work done is a bodge job, it's gets a lot more complicated and expensive to fix and regularise. So be very careful to make sure you aren't taking on a liability.

Section62

Barmy_Army_92 said:

Our solicitor suggested two courses of action: 

1.  Get the seller to apply for retrospective planning permission
2. Indemnity insurance

The solicitor advised against option 1. Knowing that indemnity insurance is largely useless, I feel like seeking some advice from people who have perhaps had a similiar experience and what they did. The survey did not flag up any structural concerns related to this chimney. 

Unless the property is listed, if the solicitor actually advised you about 'planning permission', not building regulations, then in your position I'd be thinking seriously about changing solicitor because they appear to be unsure what they are advising you about.

Indemnity insurance won't stop an unsupported chimney falling down on you and your loved ones, so in this situation the correct advice would be to carry out whatever further investigations are needed to confirm the chimney is structurally safe.  If that requires building regulations regularisation then so be it.  The alternative is to find a different property.

Selling indemnity insurance rather than giving good advice (if that accurately reflects the situation) is not something I could happily make a living from.

K_S said:

Afaik, removing chimmey breasts does not require planning permission but does require that the structural works comply with building regs.

If the building is listed then LB consent would probably be needed to remove chimney breasts and/or fireplaces.

Barmy_Army_92

K_S said:

@barmy_army_92 Are you sure the survey indicates no structural concerns? Generally speaking, unless the work has been done according to building regs, the danger of an unsupported chimney is that a large amount of masonry could collapse. Usually the survey recommends that either the chimney breast in the roof space be removed, or provided with additional support as required by the building regs.

I've had 2 clients in the past few months pull out of purchases for similar findings and the seller was unwilling to reduce the price by an amount commensurate to the work required to bring it in line with building regs requirements.

Afaik, removing chimmey breasts does not require planning permission but does require that the structural works comply with building regs.

This was the statement within the survey report; "The two rear chimney breasts within the roof space are made of brick. The chimney breasts have been removed below and it was not possible to see how the chimneys are being supported. You should ask your legal adviser to check if the local authority gave permission for this work. If not, you should ask an appropriately qualified professional to inspect the structure and if defect is found with the support design a suitable repair scheme, and carry out this work soon."

Aside from option 1+2, my solicitor is simply recommending that I pay the additional cost of a surveyor/structural engineer to inspect the works as per the survey report above. This is why I have queried the age of this work, if it was done a long time ago then I am less concerned than if it was within the last ten years [purely unqualified personal risk assessment]. If the work was more recent then what precedent do i have to pass the cost onto the seller in one way or another?

K_S

Barmy_Army_92 said:

K_S said:

@barmy_army_92 Are you sure the survey indicates no structural concerns? Generally speaking, unless the work has been done according to building regs, the danger of an unsupported chimney is that a large amount of masonry could collapse. Usually the survey recommends that either the chimney breast in the roof space be removed, or provided with additional support as required by the building regs.

I've had 2 clients in the past few months pull out of purchases for similar findings and the seller was unwilling to reduce the price by an amount commensurate to the work required to bring it in line with building regs requirements.

Afaik, removing chimmey breasts does not require planning permission but does require that the structural works comply with building regs.

This was the statement within the survey report; "The two rear chimney breasts within the roof space are made of brick. The chimney breasts have been removed below and it was not possible to see how the chimneys are being supported. You should ask your legal adviser to check if the local authority gave permission for this work. If not, you should ask an appropriately qualified professional to inspect the structure and if defect is found with the support design a suitable repair scheme, and carry out this work soon."

Aside from option 1+2, my solicitor is simply recommending that I pay the additional cost of a surveyor/structural engineer to inspect the works as per the survey report above. This is why I have queried the age of this work, if it was done a long time ago then I am less concerned than if it was within the last ten years [purely unqualified personal risk assessment]. If the work was more recent then what precedent do i have to pass the cost onto the seller in one way or another?

@barmy_army_92 Ok, so the survey is inconclusive on whether the remaining chimmney breast is adequately supported or not.

If the vendors don't have any details/drawings/etc to provide of the work that was done, the checks to confirm this are usually invasive. The areas where the lower part of breast was removed need to be checked to see if there are any steel supports, etc in place.

The problem here is that sometimes sellers aren't happy to do this kind of inspection due to reasons that you can guess. Even if they did allow it, and it came back saying you need (say) 5-10k worth of work doing to regularise it, there's no guarantee that the seller will agree to knock that off the price.

I guess it boils down to your risk appetite. If you feel comfortable enough buying as-is with a clear view of what the risks might be, and the lender is fine as well, then that's all there is to it.

Barmy_Army_92

My solicitor query to the sellers came back. The seller has no knowledge of the chimney breast removals, they purchased the house in 1998. On the balance of everything, I think I will complete with the indemnity insurance. As you rightly point out, and as the solictor has advised other options will likely cause further delay and prove costly and may not even be approved by the seller. Thank you for all your help. 

AdrianC

The indemnity is pointless. The local authority cannot pursue any failure to get BR sign-off after this period of time.

The money is FAR better spent on getting a structural engineer to investigate and report.

Barmy_Army_92

AdrianC said:

The indemnity is pointless. The local authority cannot pursue any failure to get BR sign-off after this period of time.

The money is FAR better spent on getting a structural engineer to investigate and report.

I agree, the seller is paying for the indemnity insurance. A waste of time, but I am following the solicitor's advice at no cost to myself. 

However,  I don't figure the seller is going to agree to things such as structural engineers etc after this length of time, providing they are being truthful about never undertaking the work themselves, which I see no reason why they wouldn't be, whether truthful or not this is clearly the stance they've taken. This is something I can do once I have purchased the property. If it's caused no detectable structural problems since before 1998 I think the risk is fairly low. The house is otherwise in good condition for its age, so I see no reason why this particular job would have been 'bodged'. 

This is also partly being driven by the very slow conveyancing process which has resulted in us only receiving the local searches a fortnight ago when we had the offer accepted at the beginning of April and my partners imminent due date. 

I will update the thread in due course with the positive or negative outcomes, as I know this is a common problem that people will search for in the future. Once again, thank you all.