Pipes moved, new radiator — should system cleaner and inhibitor be added?

DocQuincy

We are having some work done in the next few weeks, involving some pipes in the kitchen being moved and a new radiator added in a new location, requiring new pipework. I assume because it is not a straight radiator swap and pipes are being changed going upstairs and into the cellar the plumber will have to drain the entire system.

Should I double-check with plumber that they will be adding both system cleaner and inhibitor? I don't think the system has been drained in years. We had a radiator replaced a year ago and I do not know if any inhibitor was added at that time.

I really know nothing about this so may be an obvious question but is it standard practice for a plumber to top up inhibitor when draining any water out of the system? If they are draining the whole system should I be checking/insisting they usually add a cleanser?

I'm speaking to them in a few days so just trying to get a bit more clued up!

Finally, more a maintenance question. Should the system be drained every few years and inhibitor topped up every couple of years?

Thanks.

nofoollikeold

1. If draining, I would expect the plumber to add inhibitor once re-filled.
2. I wouldn't expect system cleaner to be used unless asked for.  It would be at additional cost.
3. The inhibitor does have a finite life.  Two years is the earliest I would consider it needed replenishing, five years the outside limit.  If you know what is in there, there is no need to drain, just add new inhibitor of the same kind. If you don't know what is in the system already, probably better to drain.

DocQuincy

Thanks for the fast reply. I'll mention the cleaner and see what they say.

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Doc.

As NFLO says.

The plumber will get a very good idea of what condition your system is in when he drains it down (yes, he'll almost certainly drain it fully). If you can be there when he does so, then you'll have a good idea too; is the water clean? Light brown? Dark brown? Very dark with some nasty black splodges...?

Best to pre-empt what you may end up wanting extra, rather than waiting until he's half-way through. You might wish, for example, to have a magnetic filter fitted on the return pipe to the boiler (simple, around £100), and - if so - then there's a case for adding 'long-term' system cleaner which can be left in.

If you add 'normal' system cleaners, then it'll need flushing out in a matter of weeks.

If the drained water is pretty much clear, and any removed rads don't spew out black sludge when tipped on end, then that would suggest your system is in great order, so fresh inhibitor should be all you require.

The darker the water coming out - and any significant sludge in the rads - would be worth having steps taken to eradicate it - and that means cleaner + filter.

And, yes, inhibitor will need adding - and almost certainly the plumber would do this as a matter of course and not consider it an 'extra'.

DocQuincy

Thanks for the extra info.

If you add 'normal' system cleaners, then it'll need flushing out in a matter of weeks.

I thought you added a cleanser and ran it through the system for a shorter period of time than that (hours rather than days/weeks) and then drained it and added water and inhibitor — which stays in. I assume it depends how dirty the system is.

You've answered my question anyway. I'll just defer the the plumber's expertise when it comes to cleanser but double-check inhibitor is added.

If you only used inhibitor and never cleanser what is the long term effect? Would you need to replace the copper pipes or would it just mean you need to use more cleanser initially?

Thanks again.

P.S. We had a leak a year ago and the water from the system smelled really funny but was quite clear.

Grenage

DocQuincy said:

Thanks for the extra info.

If you add 'normal' system cleaners, then it'll need flushing out in a matter of weeks.

I thought you added a cleanser and ran it through the system for a shorter period of time than that (hours rather than days/weeks) and then drained it and added water and inhibitor — which stays in. I assume it depends how dirty the system is.

You've answered my question anyway. I'll just defer the the plumber's expertise when it comes to cleanser but double-check inhibitor is added.

If you only used inhibitor and never cleanser what is the long term effect? Would you need to replace the copper pipes or would it just mean you need to use more cleanser initially?

Thanks again.

P.S. We had a leak a year ago and the water from the system smelled really funny but was quite clear.

It depends.  There are agressive cleaners that you circulare for hours, and others that can sit for months.

You don't generally need to use a cleaner unless you have a problem.

Jeepers_Creepers

DocQuincy said:

Thanks for the extra info.

If you add 'normal' system cleaners, then it'll need flushing out in a matter of weeks.

I thought you added a cleanser and ran it through the system for a shorter period of time than that (hours rather than days/weeks) and then drained it and added water and inhibitor — which stays in. I assume it depends how dirty the system is.

You've answered my question anyway. I'll just defer the the plumber's expertise when it comes to cleanser but double-check inhibitor is added.

If you only used inhibitor and never cleanser what is the long term effect? Would you need to replace the copper pipes or would it just mean you need to use more cleanser initially?

Thanks again.

You are right - there are cleaners which are used for 'power-flushing' or their equivalent. Strong chemicals which are introduced and are either pumped around using the PF machine, or else circulated using the boiler's pump with the heating full on. Both require a good drain-down and water flushing afterwards.

Then there's the stuff you and I can buy over the counter, and this can be left in for - usually - a couple of weeks. Again, it needs flushing out.

Finally, there's 'long term' cleaner, often called 'filter aid' or similar, which can be left in indefinitely, and any recovered sludge should be collected by the mag filter which should also be added.

fezster

Sentinel X400 can be left in the system for weeks and then flushed down. It is not as aggressive as X800, which should be used with a powerflush machine for a short period.

You can check the water yourself by opening a bleed screw on various radiators and checking the colour of the water. If you have a magnetic filter, make sure it is cleaned out annually and check how much magnetite has built up. If you don't have one, get one fitted.

I wouldn't rely on the plumber adding inhibitor without being asked. British Gas are renowned for using the excuse that a powerflush is required to get out of an insurance claim, yet none of their engineers routinely top up inhibitor when it is required. I've always had to insist on it. Or just learn how to top it up yourself and do it annually.

ComicGeek

fezster said:

I wouldn't rely on the plumber adding inhibitor without being asked. British Gas are renowned for using the excuse that a powerflush is required to get out of an insurance claim, yet none of their engineers routinely top up inhibitor when it is required. I've always had to insist on it. Or just learn how to top it up yourself and do it annually.

Definitely agree with this - I've used a dozen or so different plumbers over the years, not a single one of them were going to do it as routine. I have had to specifically ask each time, and even then the majority didn't have any on the van and I've had to sort it out myself.

DocQuincy

Ah really? Thanks for the warning. I will definitely make sure they do then.

If you never put any in what would happen over the years? Does it ever get to the point where you need to replace the pipes?

fezster

The magnetite (often referred to as sludge) builds up inside your pipes and radiators and stops water flowing effectively. It can usually be dislodged using chemicals. It'd have to get very bad to require replacing of pipes.