Parking ticket - POPLA help

Ginplease

Good evening,

I apologise in advance, I didn't want to add to all the posts asking for help, but please HELP!

We received a parking ticket from Euro Car Parks for overparking in Manchester by 17 minutes. There's a few reasons for this: 1. Their machine was not working properly. The couple before us had the exact same problem! It kept asking us to insert a card but was not recognising any card and was terminating the transaction taking us back to the start. We tried every card and contactless between us. We even attempted to call them. We finally managed to pay after 10 minutes of frustration. I know it was exactly 10 minutes as this parking fiasco caused us to be 10 minutes late for our medical appointment. 2. It was a one way system and we had to reverse a few times to let somebody out and then attempt to park in a very tight space. 3. One of the drivers sustained an injury, taking it longer for him to walk. The other driver is disabled, elderly and takes longer to walk too. In fact, he holds a blue badge which is registered to that car and was displayed clearly that day. 

Unfortunately, we made the mistake of accepting liability. We wrote to ECP appealing the ticket but they rejected it, so the next step is POPLA. Strangely, the rejection letter states that there was a major keying error made and a £20 administration charge is now due. This is absolutely absurd and they are literally making things up as they go along!

I feel like MikeHammer's situation was similar to ours, and I've tried to add bits to his template, but I'm finding it difficult to put pen to paper. Could somebody please help or offer some advice? I think I'm feeling overwheled as I know the clock is ticking and is due in the next few days.

Coupon-mad

POPLA codes last for 33 days not 28 so you have more days than you think (please don't cite POPLA's website or ECP's rejection letter to double check this - we are right in that an extra 5 days exists that they don't tell you about and we successfully use POPLA codes online, up to day 33 regularly.  I have done myself).

You said:

The other driver is disabled, elderly and takes longer to walk too. In fact, he holds a blue badge which is registered to that car and was displayed clearly that day. 

So the driver was entitled to more time for their money and you should have included a copy of the Blue Badge with the appeal and in a complaint to the landowner/retailer (did you?).  It is illegal to hold disabled people to an arbitrary and inflexible time limit and in the case of pay & display bays, Local Authorities have already lost a legal challenge about this, and private firms are under the same duty (as Service Providers, rather than as public bodies):

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/disabled-campaigners-claim-norwich-parking-victory-464282

We received a parking ticket from Euro Car Parks for overparking in Manchester by 17 minutes.

What exactly was the alleged breach described as on the postal PCN (Notice to Keeper)?

Strangely, the rejection letter states that there was a major keying error made and a £20 administration charge is now due. This is absolutely absurd and they are literally making things up as they go along!

There may have been...but what did the PCN actually say?  Word for word, about the breach?

And what happened when you complained to the landowner?

If you haven't done that yet, tell us by Tuesday when they've cancelled it for you when you make a robust complaint citing the Blue Badge case and their failure to allow more time for people with protected characteristics.  I say 'Tuesday' because I predict if you complain to the right person this will be cancelled within 48 hours.  DO THAT BEFORE POPLA.

D_P_Dance

Have you read the newbies and complained to your MP?  Google "frustration of contract" wrt the faulty machine.  

Redx

If it was a hospital , complain to PALS

As mentioned above , the EA2010 covers the blue badge holder and ECP should have allowed reasonable adjustment for the extra time taken , plus grace periods under the BPA CoP due to frustration of contract due to faulty machines and the difficulties encountered in making payment

The keying error claim is possibly due to a section in the BPA CoP , but if the correct VRM was used then I agree it's strange to offer it

Ginplease

Thank you so much for your replies, help and suggestions Coupon-mad, D_P_Dance and Redx.

I typed out a lengthy reply to each one of your questions/suggestions, posted the post but it's gone awol and is no where to be seen

I had no idea they allow blue badge holders additional time. It makes sense as my father is law is 92 and it takes him a good while to get out of the car and get steady on his feet. I haven't complained to the landowner but following your suggestion, I'll be doing just that. I'll need to find the details on good old google. I thought I read somewhere that ECP plc own the land but I could be wrong. It's the Browncross Steet car park in Manchester.

I haven't complained to the MP but I may try that option after complaining to the land owner. See, I wish it was a hospital as I work in one, hence why this is exceptionally inconvenient as time is really short at the moment! 

I honestly don't believe I could have keyed in the number plate wrong. It took many attempts and I was paying particular attention. Also, surely it would've showed on the ticket itself? 

I've attached photos of the initial NTK and the appeal rejection letter. I've blocked out the 'major keying error' on the rejection letter but as an example, they claim it was input like 'A1ABCA1AB' instead of 'A1ABC' 

Coupon-mad

I'd consider paying the £20 because you say you 'tried several times' and must have input the VRM twice, causing that error. 

I am not saying it's right for them to have £20, BTW (see below about the 2022 changes).  I'm just being pragmatic. Bunch of chancers.  They'd have been able to see the mismatched payment and could have attributed it to your car BEFORE they issued the PCN.

I had no idea they allow blue badge holders additional time

They don't - yet. 

But the EA 2010 & the DDA before it, require that traders have to allow more time for persons who need it.  This was reported more than a decade ago in this BBC article and is still true:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8488737.stm

We hope that the new Government CoP from 2022 will require PPCs to allow extra parking time because it's the law...and it's been tested already against Local Authorities:

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/disabled-campaigners-claim-norwich-parking-victory-464282

Whatever you decide to do, there is a more important wider picture this Summer:

Please come back in August to this forum and keep checking till you find us talking about the all-important final Government Public Consultation because you will be an ideal member of the public to respond!   So will your family and the disabled elderly driver (you could do a reply on his behalf if he is up for that, in his name, spelling out how angry he is about this.

The MHCLG needs real people to help them shape and decide the level of parking charges and they’ve already stated that the lower level will be £50 (£25) not £100. Great!

But the PPCs will also be responding to the Consultation so we need real members of the public to balance that and share your own views and experience of an horrific court claim and bully boy letters ruining your peace of mind for years.

I also read somewhere in the public domain this week, that they will also be consulting about the Appeals Charter.  That's the code of practice clause that currently suggest the £20 slap should apply for major keying errors.

We say that the Appeals Charter should result in FULLY CANCELLED PCNs in future, not £20, which just incentivises PPCs to issue PCNs anyway.  Like I said, ECP could see the mismatched VRM before they even got the DVLA data, because they have to carry out manual checks.  So they knew what they were doing.

Why should PPCs be rewarded by £20 (or the right for it to go back up after an arbitrary xx days for this 'kind offer'?).  PPCs should be incentivised NOT to issue PCNs and not rewarded for such dodgy PCNs that their mandatory 'manual checks' undoubtedly showed them you'd paid all along. 

The Appeals Charter should be set at zero, and people should not have to input a VRM on a keypad at all because the ANPR camera knows the right VRM from entry.  There is no excuse.

I think you will have a lot to say to the consultation so please stick around, it is opening soon and we will start a thread about it.   The more REAL responses from real victims, the better.

Ginplease

Coupon-mad said:

I'd consider paying the £20 because you say you 'tried several times' and must have input the VRM twice, causing that error. 

I am not saying it's right for them to have £20, BTW (see below about the 2022 changes).  I'm just being pragmatic. Bunch of chancers.  They'd have been able to see the mismatched payment and could have attributed it to your car BEFORE they issued the PCN.

I had no idea they allow blue badge holders additional time

They don't - yet. 

But the EA 2010 & the DDA before it, require that traders have to allow more time for persons who need it.  This was reported more than a decade ago in this BBC article and is 

We hope that the new Government CoP from 2022 will require PPCs to allow extra parking time because it's the law...and it's been tested already against Local Authorities:


Whatever you decide to do, there is a more important wider picture this Summer:

Please come back in August to this forum and keep checking till you find us talking about the all-important final Government Public Consultation because you will be an ideal member of the public to respond!   So will your family and the disabled elderly driver (you could do a reply on his behalf if he is up for that, in his name, spelling out how angry he is about this.

The MHCLG needs real people to help them shape and decide the level of parking charges and they’ve already stated that the lower level will be £50 (£25) not £100. Great!

But the PPCs will also be responding to the Consultation so we need real members of the public to balance that and share your own views and experience of an horrific court claim and bully boy letters ruining your peace of mind for years.

I also read somewhere in the public domain this week, that they will also be consulting about the Appeals Charter.  That's the code of practice clause that currently suggest the £20 slap should apply for major keying errors.

We say that the Appeals Charter should result in FULLY CANCELLED PCNs in future, not £20, which just incentivises PPCs to issue PCNs anyway.  Like I said, ECP could see the mismatched VRM before they even got the DVLA data, because they have to carry out manual checks.  So they knew what they were doing.

Why should PPCs be rewarded by £20 (or the right for it to go back up after an arbitrary xx days for this 'kind offer'?).  PPCs should be incentivised NOT to issue PCNs and not rewarded for such dodgy PCNs that their mandatory 'manual checks' undoubtedly showed them you'd paid all along. 

The Appeals Charter should be set at zero, and people should not have to input a VRM on a keypad at all because the ANPR camera knows the right VRM from entry.  There is no excuse.

I think you will have a lot to say to the consultation so please stick around, it is opening soon and we will start a thread about it.   The more REAL responses from real victims, the better.

Unfortunately, they’ve sent us another letter since and the fee has gone up to £170. So I’m not sure where the £20 came from if it’s gone up to £170! 

Please could you advise me how I can find out who the landowner please? I’ve done a lot of googling but can’t find anything.  

Yes I’ll be definitely be back, it’s very eye opening reading these posts! They absolutely need to do something. It’s not right that these things are still happening in this day and age. 

Coupon-mad

Oh you only had 14 days at £20.  OK that's gone then.  

But your POPLA code will work for 33 days (max) so you have another few days including the weekend, to work on a POPLA appeal, using the template points in the 3rd post of the NEWBIES thread. 

You won't be paying £170 or anything, not even if you lose.

Please could you advise me how I can find out who the landowner please? I’ve done a lot of googling but can’t find anything.  

Dunno, to be honest and you only have a few days to use the POPLA code - 33 days is your limit so that's Monday/Tuesday latest. 

Try a really long POPLA appeal of the usual templates, and start with a point about the driver being disabled and attach the Blue Badge and say ECP have failed to make a reasonable adjustment for the disabled driver and to allow more time, as the Equality Act 2010 requires. 

Then a second point that this was not a major keying error, there is no keying error because the right VRM has been put in but the system has recorded it twice.  No letters or numbers are out of order and the VRM is fully shown, but twice.  Therefore this PCN was not properly issued and if anything at all, it was a minor keypad error caused by their dodgy system and should have been cancelled outright.

Then the usual templates about signs and landowner authority.

Show us your draft of all this, very long, by Sunday latest.  We'll help.

Redx

You will find some information about the minor keying error aspect and evidence of a blue badge under the EA2010 aspect etc in the BPA CoP version 8 dated January 2020 edition , that is also where they get the now expired £20 from !! ( You have a great deal to learn )

As for ownership details , ECP will be mere contractors on behalf of the management company or business or landowner , it is extremely unlikely that they would own the land in question !!

Do the Popla appeal as mentioned above asap , include any and all points , especially no landowner authority and minor keying error , frustration of contract due to a misbehaving machine , full payment was made etc

Umkomaas regularly posts instructions on how to find landowner details , find it and read it , should have been done weeks ago 🤔🤔🤔

Good luck

Umkomaas

Umkomaas regularly posts instructions on how to find landowner details , find it and read it , should have been done weeks ago 🤔🤔🤔

SOME IDEAS ON DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND 

©️Umkomaas 02/21 !! 🤓

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. If you haven't already done so, give us the name of the car park, we may have seen other cases there. 

Ginplease

It's the Browncross Street car park in Manchester.

Thank you so much to all of you. It's all so confusing, I found myself staring at the newbie thread but finding it hard on where to start. My problem (and I'm sure time is a problem for most) but I work in a hospital and then from home referring urgent medical cases until midnight most nights. It's all based on time scales so I have no time to get my own stuff sorted! Story of everyone's lives this day and age isn't it, TIME! 

I'll definitely do the letter tonight and will upload it on here.