Help with Noise from flat above from laminate flooring - Lease wording very vague

MohamedO

Hi

I am a first-time buyer, I have looked through the forums and read the FAQ's but I think my case differs from a lot that I've read through in the forums.

I recently purchased a leasehold flat in west London and completed in June 2021. The flat itself is nice but the issue we are facing is that the noise from the flat above is unbearable at times. The issue we suspect is caused by the fact that the flat above has wood floor as most of the noise we face from there is the loud walking about within the property during antisocial hours of the early morning. We spoke to the building management and raised the fact that the flat above has wood floor as an issue. the management company (which I must add never call back when they say they will follow it up). They informed me, after I chased it for weeks, that there is no issue with the flat having wood floor as the lease doesn't forbid wood floor and no further action will be taken regarding that issue.

I read through the lease which I would imagine would be the same for the flat above and on the last page, which says "regulations to be observed by the lessee" one of the said regulations is "The lessee will cover all floors of the flat with carpet and underlay or such other material as prevents the unreasonable transmission of noise to other flats in the building" The wording here is very vague as to what such other materials are exactly? but I imagine this is where the freeholder is concluding that wood floor is acceptable.

So my question is what do I do now?

The management company has said to me I need to raise a noise complaint so they can send a letter to the flat above. I don't see this doing anything because the noise is just from the person above just walking in their flat (possibly heavy-footed?). we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above and asking them to be considerate, but there is only so much anyone can tolerate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

george4064

If you have sight of the lease, then make reference to the lease when you speak with the building management. That should get them into action.

[Deleted User]

MohamedO said:

Hi

I am a first-time buyer, I have looked through the forums and read the FAQ's but I think my case differs from a lot that I've read through in the forums.

I recently purchased a leasehold flat in west London and completed in June 2021. The flat itself is nice but the issue we are facing is that the noise from the flat above is unbearable at times. The issue we suspect is caused by the fact that the flat above has wood floor as most of the noise we face from there is the loud walking about within the property during antisocial hours of the early morning. We spoke to the building management and raised the fact that the flat above has wood floor as an issue. the management company (which I must add never call back when they say they will follow it up). They informed me, after I chased it for weeks, that there is no issue with the flat having wood floor as the lease doesn't forbid wood floor and no further action will be taken regarding that issue.

I read through the lease which I would imagine would be the same for the flat above and on the last page, which says "regulations to be observed by the lessee" one of the said regulations is "The lessee will cover all floors of the flat with carpet and underlay or such other material as prevents the unreasonable transmission of noise to other flats in the building" The wording here is very vague as to what such other materials are exactly? but I imagine this is where the freeholder is concluding that wood floor is acceptable.

So my question is what do I do now?

The management company has said to me I need to raise a noise complaint so they can send a letter to the flat above. I don't see this doing anything because the noise is just from the person above just walking in their flat (possibly heavy-footed?). we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above and asking them to be considerate, but there is only so much anyone can tolerate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Why not do as the management company suggests and raise a noise complaint? 

It doesn’t really matter what the other materials are as what has been installed doesn’t prevent unreasonable noise transmission into your home below. 

RAS

Download the other flat's lease from the Land Registry first.

MohamedO

Lover_of_Lycra said:

MohamedO said:

Hi

I am a first-time buyer, I have looked through the forums and read the FAQ's but I think my case differs from a lot that I've read through in the forums.

I recently purchased a leasehold flat in west London and completed in June 2021. The flat itself is nice but the issue we are facing is that the noise from the flat above is unbearable at times. The issue we suspect is caused by the fact that the flat above has wood floor as most of the noise we face from there is the loud walking about within the property during antisocial hours of the early morning. We spoke to the building management and raised the fact that the flat above has wood floor as an issue. the management company (which I must add never call back when they say they will follow it up). They informed me, after I chased it for weeks, that there is no issue with the flat having wood floor as the lease doesn't forbid wood floor and no further action will be taken regarding that issue.

I read through the lease which I would imagine would be the same for the flat above and on the last page, which says "regulations to be observed by the lessee" one of the said regulations is "The lessee will cover all floors of the flat with carpet and underlay or such other material as prevents the unreasonable transmission of noise to other flats in the building" The wording here is very vague as to what such other materials are exactly? but I imagine this is where the freeholder is concluding that wood floor is acceptable.

So my question is what do I do now?

The management company has said to me I need to raise a noise complaint so they can send a letter to the flat above. I don't see this doing anything because the noise is just from the person above just walking in their flat (possibly heavy-footed?). we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above and asking them to be considerate, but there is only so much anyone can tolerate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Why not do as the management company suggests and raise a noise complaint? 

It doesn’t really matter what the other materials are as what has been installed doesn’t prevent unreasonable noise transmission into your home below. 

We will be, but the way that the management responded to our initial complaint regarding the flooring that the flat above has really thrown me off, so I was just looking for advice really. 

MohamedO

george4064 said:

If you have sight of the lease, then make reference to the lease when you speak with the building management. That should get them into action.

We did and it was the freeholder who responded with the woodfloor being acceptable and that no further action was required. So I don't know how a noise complaint which we lead to letters being sent to the flat above will help, as we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above. 

[Deleted User]

MohamedO said:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

MohamedO said:

Hi

I am a first-time buyer, I have looked through the forums and read the FAQ's but I think my case differs from a lot that I've read through in the forums.

I recently purchased a leasehold flat in west London and completed in June 2021. The flat itself is nice but the issue we are facing is that the noise from the flat above is unbearable at times. The issue we suspect is caused by the fact that the flat above has wood floor as most of the noise we face from there is the loud walking about within the property during antisocial hours of the early morning. We spoke to the building management and raised the fact that the flat above has wood floor as an issue. the management company (which I must add never call back when they say they will follow it up). They informed me, after I chased it for weeks, that there is no issue with the flat having wood floor as the lease doesn't forbid wood floor and no further action will be taken regarding that issue.

I read through the lease which I would imagine would be the same for the flat above and on the last page, which says "regulations to be observed by the lessee" one of the said regulations is "The lessee will cover all floors of the flat with carpet and underlay or such other material as prevents the unreasonable transmission of noise to other flats in the building" The wording here is very vague as to what such other materials are exactly? but I imagine this is where the freeholder is concluding that wood floor is acceptable.

So my question is what do I do now?

The management company has said to me I need to raise a noise complaint so they can send a letter to the flat above. I don't see this doing anything because the noise is just from the person above just walking in their flat (possibly heavy-footed?). we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above and asking them to be considerate, but there is only so much anyone can tolerate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Why not do as the management company suggests and raise a noise complaint? 

It doesn’t really matter what the other materials are as what has been installed doesn’t prevent unreasonable noise transmission into your home below. 

We will be, but the way that the management responded to our initial complaint regarding the flooring that the flat above has really thrown me off, so I was just looking for advice really. 

Wooden flooring in itself isn’t an issue as a leaseholder could install wooden flooring with adequate underlay that absorbs sound and maybe put down a couple of rugs. That would meet the terms of the lease as it would prevent unreasonable transmission of noise. 

I remember this story about wooden flooring, noise and leaseholders from a few years ago. 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/couple-face-ps1m-legal-bill-after-losing-battle-over-noisy-wooden-floor-a4180116.html

MohamedO

Lover_of_Lycra said:

MohamedO said:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

MohamedO said:

Hi

I am a first-time buyer, I have looked through the forums and read the FAQ's but I think my case differs from a lot that I've read through in the forums.

I recently purchased a leasehold flat in west London and completed in June 2021. The flat itself is nice but the issue we are facing is that the noise from the flat above is unbearable at times. The issue we suspect is caused by the fact that the flat above has wood floor as most of the noise we face from there is the loud walking about within the property during antisocial hours of the early morning. We spoke to the building management and raised the fact that the flat above has wood floor as an issue. the management company (which I must add never call back when they say they will follow it up). They informed me, after I chased it for weeks, that there is no issue with the flat having wood floor as the lease doesn't forbid wood floor and no further action will be taken regarding that issue.

I read through the lease which I would imagine would be the same for the flat above and on the last page, which says "regulations to be observed by the lessee" one of the said regulations is "The lessee will cover all floors of the flat with carpet and underlay or such other material as prevents the unreasonable transmission of noise to other flats in the building" The wording here is very vague as to what such other materials are exactly? but I imagine this is where the freeholder is concluding that wood floor is acceptable.

So my question is what do I do now?

The management company has said to me I need to raise a noise complaint so they can send a letter to the flat above. I don't see this doing anything because the noise is just from the person above just walking in their flat (possibly heavy-footed?). we have already tried speaking to the neighbor above and asking them to be considerate, but there is only so much anyone can tolerate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Why not do as the management company suggests and raise a noise complaint? 

It doesn’t really matter what the other materials are as what has been installed doesn’t prevent unreasonable noise transmission into your home below. 

We will be, but the way that the management responded to our initial complaint regarding the flooring that the flat above has really thrown me off, so I was just looking for advice really. 

Wooden flooring in itself isn’t an issue as a leaseholder could install wooden flooring with adequate underlay that absorbs sound and maybe put down a couple of rugs. That would meet the terms of the lease as it would prevent unreasonable transmission of noise. 

I remember this story about wooden flooring, noise and leaseholders from a few years ago. 

My question more so is who is responsible for proving that the above leaseholder has used adequate sound absorbing materials underneath. I wonder this, because clearly they haven't used it from the noise produced when they walk on it.

eddddy

MohamedO said:

My question more so is who is responsible for proving that the above leaseholder has used adequate sound absorbing materials underneath. I wonder this, because clearly they haven't used it from the noise produced when they walk on it.

The short answer is that if the parties can't reach agreement amongst themselves, then 'somebody' would have to take your upstairs neighbour to court - and hopefully get a court order telling them to put the problem right. (That assumes that the court agrees that the neighbour is breaching the lease.)

So...

• The freeholder could send letters to your neighbour, telling them to stop breaching their lease
• Then the freeholder's solicitor could send letters threatening legal action
• Then the freeholder could take your neighbour to court

Also, depending on what your lease says, you probably have one or both of the following options...

• If the freeholder won't do anything voluntarily, you can tell the freeholder to enforce the lease - i.e. tell them to follow the steps above
• But you would probably have to indemnify the freeholder against costs - e.g. if the freeholder loses in court, you have to pay their costs
• If the freeholder still refuses to get involved, you can take the freeholder to court (or there are other options)

Or....

• There may be a 'mutual enforceability clause' in your lease
• That means you can take your upstairs neighbour to court without involving the freeholder

Some leases might have other clauses that relate to settling disputes - like the Freeholder's surveyor determines whether the lease is breached. But if the neighbour refuses to do anything about it - it's still a case of going to court.

MohamedO

eddddy said:

MohamedO said:

My question more so is who is responsible for proving that the above leaseholder has used adequate sound absorbing materials underneath. I wonder this, because clearly they haven't used it from the noise produced when they walk on it.

The short answer is that if the parties can't reach agreement amongst themselves, then 'somebody' would have to take your upstairs neighbour to court - and hopefully get a court order telling them to put the problem right. (That assumes that the court agrees that the neighbour is breaching the lease.)

So...

• The freeholder could send letters to your neighbour, telling them to stop breaching their lease
• Then the freeholder's solicitor could send letters threatening legal action
• Then the freeholder could take your neighbour to court

Also, depending on what your lease says, you probably have one or both of the following options...

• If the freeholder won't do anything voluntarily, you can tell the freeholder to enforce the lease - i.e. tell them to follow the steps above
• But you would probably have to indemnify the freeholder against costs - e.g. if the freeholder loses in court, you have to pay their costs
• If the freeholder still refuses to get involved, you can take the freeholder to court (or there are other options)

Or....

• There may be a 'mutual enforceability clause' in your lease
• That means you can take your upstairs neighbour to court without involving the freeholder

Some leases might have other clauses that relate to settling disputes - like the Freeholder's surveyor determines whether the lease is breached. But if the neighbour refuses to do anything about it - it's still a case of going to court.

Thank you for taking the time to write that.

We will raise the noise complainant and see how the freeholder proceeds. I imagine it'll probably be us that ends up having to take someone to court.

I'll read over the lease again looking for the rules of enforcement.

In your opinion would you consider wood flooring a suitable material as per the regulation in our lease? Thanks again. 

AFF8879

In the meantime, you could try investigating internal soundproofing if the noise really is unbearable 

https://www.soundproofingstore.co.uk/how-to-soundproof-a-ceiling