Wooden 'lean to'

lookstraightahead

We live in a terraced cottage. From the living room, we face into our patio at the back. Our new fence is in the left, looking out from the house.

we would like to put a quality 'lean too' against the fence (so on the left as you walk onto the patio). We are not subject to listed buildings requirements, but the attached property next to us is.

The purpose of the lean to is just to have some shelter for an outside patio table and chairs. 

It won't fix onto the back of the house, maybe a meter away and then maybe two meters long and 2 meters depth, across the patio.

can someone tell me the 'rules'?

thank you 

TELLIT01

Any reason not simply to use a free standing shed?

Section62

More info will be needed to get to the right answer....

When you say "against the fence" do you just mean a self-contained structure which will be close to the fence, or will it use the fence as one of the walls.  (E.g. in common usage "A lean-to against the house" would mean the fourth wall being the house itself)

How well do you get on with your neighbours? Will you ask them before you build it, and are they likely to object?

Is there a reason why the neighbouring property is listed and yours isn't? Is theirs part of your terrace, and were they built at the same time? Have you got a copy of the reasons for the listing? (If not, you should be able to find it here  historicengland.org.uk  )

Has your property had any extensions since 1 July 1948 (or when it was built if later)?  Are there any covenants, planning conditions or RoW?

lookstraightahead

TELLIT01 said:

Any reason not simply to use a free standing shed?

Probably not actually, thought a lean to would be easier 😂

lookstraightahead

Section62 said:

More info will be needed to get to the right answer....

When you say "against the fence" do you just mean a self-contained structure which will be close to the fence, or will it use the fence as one of the walls.  (E.g. in common usage "A lean-to against the house" would mean the fourth wall being the house itself)

How well do you get on with your neighbours? Will you ask them before you build it, and are they likely to object?

Is there a reason why the neighbouring property is listed and yours isn't? Is theirs part of your terrace, and were they built at the same time? Have you got a copy of the reasons for the listing? (If not, you should be able to find it here  historicengland.org.uk  )

Has your property had any extensions since 1 July 1948 (or when it was built if later)?  Are there any covenants, planning conditions or RoW?

Thinking fence as one of the walls. It's a 5' fence that we put up a few weeks ago. It's a thick sturdy fence. 

All the houses are different and nearly 200 years old. All I can find on the historical England website is that it's to do with windows. Our windows are different (it is a converted shop).

it should make no difference to them theoretically as not thinking of going any higher than the fence.

Will check rest on deeds - didn't think that would be particularly relevant depending on whether it is seen as permanent structure? 

Section62

lookstraightahead said:

Will check rest on deeds - didn't think that would be particularly relevant depending on whether it is seen as permanent structure? 

The temporary/permanent thing doesn't usually make much difference in planning and legal terms. E.g. with a RoW it is probably Ok to temporarily block it with a chair, but a 'temporary' shed can be as difficult to move as a 'permanent' one.  Likewise, with covenants it only makes a difference if the wording is specific about things being temporary/permanent.

The relevance of the relationship with the neighbours is that if they are likely to object then you need to cover every single angle. For example, a historic RoW which isn't being used (because you've got that new fence) could be something the neighbours suddenly discover they desperately need to use if it means making you remove the shed/store.

The planning situation is complicated, and the age of the buildings confirms this is something you might need to do more research on (especially if the neighbour is likely to object).  You might need planning consent/LB consent if what you are doing is deemed to impact on the setting of the listed building, or the structure is within the original curtilage of the listed building at the time of listing. The curtilage issue is one which catches a lot of people out in these cases, because they weren't aware of how the ownership of land had altered over the years.

If you get on well with the neighbour then I would mention what you plan to do so it doesn't come as a surprise to them. If you are confident that nobody would object then you can probably just go ahead without doing anything else, but in that case I would make the store a freestanding structure so it could be easily relocated if it is subsequently objected to. Making it part of the fence gives it more permanence, and more expensive to rebuild if you do need to move it.

If the neighbour is known to be uncooperative then personally I would contact the council's conservation officer for a chat and ask them if there would be any need to get approval for what you want to do. Although bear in mind that your new fence might already be deemed to 'affect the setting' and need modification. If the important windows are only in the front facade the risk of problems is likely to be lower.

lookstraightahead

Thank you Section62 that's really helpful. It's so higgledy piggledy - when we bought the house, the deeds only showed half the garden and the renovators had to give our vendors back the land (all done through solicitors and no problems there). Neighbours are the best you could wish for.

curtilage is interesting on the other side as there is an old stone wall spanning the old house and three other houses that have been built since, in the 'grounds'. 

I don't want to poke a hornets nest 😂 so I will research carefully! 

FreeBear

A small shed, under 2.5m in height doesn't require planning or building regs and can be right next to the boundary. The only fly in the ointment might be the listed building status of next door, but I don't really see how that would affect you if your property isn't listed.

Personally, I'd construct a "proper" shed with one wall missing, unattached to the fence - This would allow you to move it away from the fence if required (or relocate to a different part of the garden) without too much effort.

Section62

lookstraightahead said:

I don't want to poke a hornets nest 😂 so I will research carefully! 

Funnily enough "poke a hornets nest" was the exact phrase I was thinking of as I typed the bit about having a chat with the conservation officer, which is why I caveatted it with the bit about only if you already have problems.

FreeBear said:

The only fly in the ointment might be the listed building status of next door, but I don't really see how that would affect you if your property isn't listed.

It's the issues of affecting the setting of a listed building, and (more likely perhaps) the question-mark over the extent of the original curtilage.  The effect of the listing doesn't stop dead at the current property ownership boundary, instead it is fuzzy around the issues of how the important features of the listed building might be affected by any development.

The bottom line of course is to stop people 'selling' the garden of a listed building, with the buyer plonking whatever development they want on it (obviously with planning consent if necessary), claiming a right to do so because it it isn't part of the listed property.

Without the boundary fuzziness, the above approach could be used to almost completely bypass LB restrictions on things like extensions, outbuildings and even 'garden grabbing'.

I suspect the planning casefile for the "three other houses" that lookstraightahead mentions would make interesting reading.

lookstraightahead

Hmmm lots of reading this weekend. Might come back with more questions 🙂