CONSERVATORY/BOUNDARY/RIGHT OF WAY

Norman_Castle

KEMYST said:

 it seems that any use of our own property could be construed  as an impediment to the right of way because it is only 7` 6" wide. It would seem we have no rights at all. My wife is wondering how she is going to dry washing during the period of construction. 

Unlikely you would be expected to keep the full width clear, a route as wide as the narrowest point such as a gateway should be acceptable.

Construction will be over in a few weeks. Deal with it for those weeks.

Take control of the situation as much as possible. Expect the current gate and posts to vanish and prepare for it. Get quotes for your own posts and a gate you like.

It seems obvious the metal gate was put up between two gardens by friendly neighbours and before the plastic conservatory was built. Its unfortunate that the new neighbour seems content to be difficult. All you can do is defend your boundary and try to ignore her.

http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/priv-r-o-w.html

Jeepers_Creepers

Even in our present American-sized days, no-one will require a permanent 7'6" pathway to perambulate down. There will be occasions, of course, where a wider-than-a-person pathway is required such as when carrying large objects, and it would be reasonable to allow this when required, but common sense dictates that what can actually be carried over this RoW will be largely determined by the width of any gateways on that path.

No-one can reasonably expect a garden owner to permanently keep the 7'6" space fully available, 'just in case it's needed'.

So what tends to happen in practice?

A RoW across a garden does not mean that the garden can not be used as a full garden at all other times; they usually are. How far this goes in practice will depend on individual circumstances. For example, some folk will only use a RoW once a week or fortnight to take their green bins through, and for that the garden's owner would be expected to make allowances and, say, ensure their deck chairs are shifted to leave room for these prearranged days. Others will make regular use of RoWs as a walk-through, and for this the garden owner would really be expected to always leave a pathway-width clear for their use. Still others will very rarely use a RoW, and will only call on it for situations a bit like yours; "I need to bring a shed round - do you mind?", and for this they'd ask in advance for the garden owner to make sure a space is left clear, as is their right.

So, how does that apply to your situation? First is the deeds, which I can't recall what you said, but it was something like for 'pedestrians and vehicles'?! When was this written? What sort of 'vehicles' could they possibly have in mind?! A cart? Then there's the physical constraints on the width of the passing object or person. How wide is that gate? And, since they've placed a PVC door which seemingly limits the width even further, how wide is that? And, is there a gate at the other end of your garden? Ie, the gate - and their door - has actually limited what can be expected to go down that RoW. Do YOU have a gate at the other end? How wide is it?

(I really wish you'd add more photos to show the whole picture, along with a sketched plan - we are partially nobbled in our attempts to help you otherwise).

So, do those with the entitlement to use this RoW have the right to use the full 7'6" width of your garden? I would suggest that's a categorical 'no'. Why? For the same reason that anyone with a RoW across a 100' garden with an obvious entrance/exit gate at each end would not have the right to take a meandering detour in front of your house and through your orchard. That would clearly be trespass.

I would suggest, then, that what is 'reasonable' in your case is for you to leave a gate/door-width of foot access along there, and for you to enjoy the rest. And this would only apply if they make regular, and unplanned use of the RoW. If their use is rare, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to encroach to some degree, but always with the open intention of clearing a path should it be requested. If they insist it's kept permanently clear, then I guess you have to do this. But it would be unreasonable for anyone to complain if a lightweight folding chair 'encroached' over the path width by a few inches, and which clearly would not impede access.

I think 'impeding access' is the issue.

Your main weapons remain the 'no trespass of your property over my boundary line' issue, which is the biggie - make it as clear as you like that they have NO right to do this, and you have the RIGHT to prevent it. And also what is the reasonable limit to RoW's width? I would suggest that this is limited to the width of the access gates. Fancy pinning a string down parallel to the border to determine that line? And placing all your best planters right up to that line? (Take advice first!)

Use your time with the solicitor wisely - focus on the key practical things you can do. Try and get answers to these Qs so you can act on them asap.

1) Can I prevent their door from opening on to my land? Yes/No.

2) What is the reasonable width of a RoW path through a garden? Is it limited by the access points - gate widths, etc? Can I place my garden furniture right up to that width?

3) Can I have my own gate fitted right away on my land? If so, how narrow can I reasonably get away with?!

Don't emote. Cut to the chase, keep it factual. This neighb is taking advantage, and they have (surely better for all concerned?) alternatives to all this. They choose not to entertain them. They choose to impose on you instead. You are looking for practical solutions that will help persuade them otherwise.

KEMYST

Thanks...we are doing all you suggest at the moment/ All it takes is a polite request and we would comply. Anyway thanks for your time?

phoebe1989seb

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(I really wish you'd add more photos to show the whole picture, along with a sketched plan - we are partially nobbled in our attempts to help you otherwise).

This ^^^

If you are unable to take a photo showing the whole from above (from an upstairs window?), a simple sketch would suffice and aid posters to better understand the bigger picture 😉

OP, I appreciate that you said your neighbour's garden is on a different level to your own, but I'm still struggling to see why it wouldn't be better for all concerned if they moved the ROW access to further down towards where I'm presuming - for lack of visual aid - the exit to the road (and thus the other end of the ROW) is situated, thereby negating the need to traverse so much of your admittedly tight garden space?

If I were your neighbour - although I confess I'd never consider purchasing a property with such a ROW, and indeed discounted an otherwise perfect property once because of one - this would be top of my *to do* list!

Jeepers_Creepers

Empathetic folk would actually tend to feel a bit uncomfortable using a RoW across someone's garden, especially one as narrow as the OP's, and would look for alternatives if they are available.

It takes a certain type of person to seemingly not feel concerned about this at all, and to even consider it perfectly fine to build right up to the access point and plan to have their door open on to someone else's land 'cos it's less bovver.

There are two types of folk.

Norman_Castle

phoebe1989seb said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(I really wish you'd add more photos to show the whole picture, along with a sketched plan - we are partially nobbled in our attempts to help you otherwise).

OP, I appreciate that you said your neighbour's garden is on a different level to your own, but I'm still struggling to see why it wouldn't be better for all concerned if they moved the ROW access to further down towards where I'm presuming - for lack of visual aid - the exit to the road (and thus the other end of the ROW) is situated, thereby negating the need to traverse so much of your admittedly tight garden space?

It would benefit the neighbour by removing the need for a doorway which they want opening outwards. Additionally anything they want in their garden has to go through the conservatory rather than a gateway directly into the garden. I'd expect future purchasers of either property would prefer access from the start of the row rather than unnecessarily through a neighbours garden then awkwardly through a conservatory.

Section62

Norman_Castle said:

It would benefit the neighbour by removing the need for a doorway which they want opening outwards. Additionally anything they want in their garden has to go through the conservatory rather than a gateway directly into the garden. I'd expect future purchasers of either property would prefer access from the start of the row rather than unnecessarily through a neighbours garden then awkwardly through a conservatory.

I agree, but a downside of getting rid of the doorway would be the removal of (more or less) level access from the RoW into the rear main part of the neighbours house. Heavy items (or wheelchairs?) would need to negotiated up the new steps and then down steps(?) from the conservatory garden level to the house level.

Whether or not that is of practical significance can't be determined from the currently very limited information we have without more pictures and a plan.


If I was the neighbour I'd seriously consider lowering the level of my garden and the 'upper' conservatory floor level to make both roughly the same level as the OP's patio and the floor in the main house.  (possibly terracing the garden towards the rear if need be)

Replacing the conservatory whilst maintaining the current difference in levels and two doorways simply isn't the most sensible approach.

KEMYST

LOL! Trust me this is not going to happen. Something positive, for as change - and quite funny!! The f*****g sewer is blocked!! Sewage is coming up all over the patio!!. The sewer is shared between us No1, No2, (next door) and No.3. The first time this happened, I didn`t realise that the sewers were shared

 At that time two gay ladies lived next door. They had had a tiff and one had flushed the other`s underwear down the toilet! So, when Dynorod came to unblock the sewer, they just kept fishing out knickers - dozens of them! I paid the fee but, of course, nobody would own up and pay a share.

Luckily Welsh Water will come to the rescue! They will come around within about 8hours and sort everything out. They even wash the patio down. The last time, I offered them a tip so they could have a pint, and both men refused saying it was just their job

There are good people around!

KEMYST

Just to indicate how horrible people can be. The last time this happened the sewer was blocked by wet wipes. The engineer said that the three of us would be getting a `naughty` letter for flushing wet wipes down the toilet/ I accepted this although my wife does not use them, When I told the other two neighbours that letters would be coming to them too - they just wiped the floor with me. Ah well s**t happens!

Section62

KEMYST said:

The sewer is shared between us No1, No2, (next door) and No.3.

If you are 1 and the neighbour with the conservatory is 2, then does that mean the shared sewer goes under 2's conservatory from number 3?

If so, do they have any form of buildover agreement for the conservatory, and is there a manhole lurking somewhere underneath it?