Neighbour Fence Height construction issue

Cookiepops

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Cookie.

Can't say I'm fully following the details here, so please correct the following:

1) You don't get on with this neighb, and find it hard to communicate with them? And they with you? Try and put that aside for a moment, and look solely at the facts of this issue. Which presumably are:

2) For much of the garden boundary, your neigh has put up a new, concrete-post fence which is 6' tall, and this is within their boundary? So nothing amiss there.

3) Your neighbs have built a 'raised' patio near their house which is around a 1/2' high, so this is well within the 300mm height at which they'd need to apply for PP? So nothing amiss there.

4) They have attached 6' high fence panels to 'your' fence, a fence that you admit ain't all that strong? Ok, that's the first dodgy thing they've done - if it's your fence. Is it? And possibly they have gone a tad too high in any case as - I think - the height is measured from the lowest ground level, but please don't quote me on that. But, in any case, they are seeking PP for an even higher fence, so are following the correct procedure? Nothing amiss in that last bit.

And that's the gist of it?

Hmm. This neigh has built an easily-conforming patio, and is now - rightly - seeking PP for a higher fence since their land is higher than yours in any case, and presumably they'd be able to see over a standard 6' fence if they didn't do this. And they clearly don't want to see into your garden.

I have to say, Cookie, that I'm struggling to see what your issue is.

When PP comes out, and very possibly approves their request for an 8' fence (tho' they might tell them to compromise at, say, 7', for example), then almost certainly your neighb is going to have to rebuild the whole fence to make it strong enough. (There is no onus on you to rebuild this fence, or even have a fence at all, but if it blows down on to their land and causes damage, then you would be liable as you clearly know the fence ain't all that strong.  On the other hand, if the fence falls down after they have attached extra panels to it without permission, you could argue that it's their panels wot dun it. Seriously, tho', you don't want to get into a legal argument over such things).

So, you are going to end up with a very strong, brand-new fence at no cost to you? And privacy?

I'm now struggling even more to see your concern.

What are the alternatives? You stick to your guns and make an issue of this until they might decide it ain't worth pursuing, in which case you will be stuck with a shoogly 6' fence with your neighb's heads bobbing above it. Or they could plant some laurels along that border which will grow to 12'+ and there's nothing you can do about it.

IF I have summed up the situation correctly, can I please suggest - for your health, dignity, and future happiness in your home - you tell the PP fellow (or your neighb), "Look, all I am concerned about is the physical structure of my fence. So if they get their PP for an 8' fence - and I do appreciate that they are going about this the right way and have no objection in principle - will they be prepared to rebuild it as strongly as they have the other sections?"

"Yes."

"Cool - and can you thank them. And for also going about this the right way..."

I promise you, such magnanimity will make you feel a LOT better about the whole thing, will ease tensions, and should prevent them from going an alternative route - which would almost certainly be much worse for you.

so, just to answer your questions:
1. yes we cant communicate with them.  We tried to talk to them reasonably when they started to attach their fence panels to our fence and was told to go and f*** ourselves, we can do what we want in our own garden.  I do need to add here, this isn't a personality/neighbour clash, they are like this with pretty much everyone in our street and have regularly had arguments with other neighbours in the street.  They aren't reasonable people.
2. yes that is correct, their own fence within their boundary which is supported by its own posts.  No issue there.
3.  Yes they have a raised patio in front of their house, not sure of the height exactly but its approx 1/2 ft high but might be higher (our gardens slightly slope away from the house)
4. As you get closer to the house (and I'm assuming its where their raised patio begins), they change the construction of their fence from having its own posts and cut it in with a piece of wood and attached it to our fence.  The other 3 fence panels running alongside their raised patio have then been directly attached to our fence (most of our fence is a low wired fence and marks the original boundary - our wooden fence closer to the house is inside of the boundary) - so their independent fence runs the length of our wire fence, they have then cut it in as soon as our wooden fence begins and then attached their remaining panels directly to ours.  There is no issues with our fence (I never said it wasn't strong) - the point I was trying to make (obviously not very well) is where they have cut in and then attached directly to ours is where their raised patio is so their fence is already higher - their 6ft panels have been attached around 1/2ft up our fence - making it top heavy and weight on their side - and they now want to make that 8ft (which will be 8.5ft from our side).    They aren't replacing it that I know of - I don't think they intend to because it is very clearly on our side as it staggers back from the rest of the fence.  I have no issues with the height, I have no issues with the fence that has its own posts, I only have a concern that they want to replace the 6ft panels with 8ft fence panels attached 1/2ft up a fence that is approx 5 1/2ft fence tall with posts designed to support a 5 1/2ft fence.  What I also didn't mention in my post is we have a water pipe and electric cables along the back of that fence too so it would be more than just damage to a fence

Cookiepops

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Cookie, what is your actual issue with this new fence?

Is it that it could damage your existing fence? If so, that shouldn't be an issue, as they are simply not allowed to attach anything to it if it's yours.

Or is it that - at 8' - it'll feel too tall and looming? If so, consider the alternatives - with a 6' fence, you'll likely see their heads as they walk on their patio, and they'll also see into your garden = little privacy. If they find this is a problem - if they decide they don't like you seeing their heads from the ears up, then there is nothing to stop them planting screening shrubs, and they can let this grow pretty much as tall as they want. How would you feel about a 12' high hedge? You should seriously consider how you'd feel about this.

This sounds like a good time to agree a win-win. They get their 8' fence, and you get your both privacy and a brand new fence too - 'cos your old one wasn't all that strong.

They already have a 6ft fence and its just over 6 1/2ft where their raised patio is - and we have a lot of planting along the boundary so can hardly see the fence.  So, I am genuinely confused as to why they want to raise it to 8ft.  We can't see them at all even when they are on their raised patio.  I don't think an 8ft fence will make any difference to our side aesthetically.  Its purely the construction.  As you said, they can't attach a fence to our fence - they already have, what they want to do is attach more at a greater height when our fence isn't designed to support that height.   I can clearly prove its our fence, we have photos showing that its inside our boundary line, that the neighbour has staggered their fence back to then attached it directly to our fence and I have the receipt of works in the home pack from the previous owner.  But I know Planning won't be interested in any of this but do they have a responsiblity to ask them to change the set up as the current on with planning is likely to cause damage?  

Jeepers_Creepers

Thanks, Cookie, for the very clear explanation.

Ok, so this neighb ain't as reasonable as I thought...

Tbh, you'd have been perfectly justified in calling your local Bobby when they started attaching their fence to yours - technically a criminal act - and especially when they told you to "go and f*** ourselves when you asked them not to. What's more, the Bobby would have taken the opportunity to nib the cause of the issue by informing your neighb to not attach anything to your fence in future as this is simply not permitted without you giving permission. If what they do then causes damage, that is technically criminal damage too. The Bobby would not have become involved in a 'civil' dispute by doing this, but would only have been pointing out the legal facts to them, and they'd then be very foolish to continue. Should you have a repeat of this, then I'd say have your local force on speed dial... Oh, and have your phone recording too. Do not be intimidated by them - don't avoid them - or else they'd have succeeded with their aggression.

Anyhoo, that was then. But hopefully you'll consider this if there's a next time.

So, are they allowed to attach anything to your fence? No. Can you stop them? Yes. How easy this is to do will come down to a few factors such as whether what they are attaching to your fence is likely to cause damage (technically becomes a 'criminal' act), and whether the neighbs are aware of the risk and consequences of what they are doing. And how well you can demonstrate this. (For example, some folk complain - and take action - if a neighb let a plant grow against their fence, whilst most - rightly - wouldn't have an issue with this at all).

That's where 'putting them on notice' is a good next step. You inform them in writing and in a recordable way (ie delivery is witnessed, or it's sent by recorded delivery post) that "you are 'putting them on notice' that they do NOT have permission to attach anything to your fence, that it is within your property's boundary, and that you will take legal action should they try and continue and/or they cause any damage to your property - this would constitute a criminal offence". With this, you have made it provably clear where you have drawn the line. Most folk would baulk at this - they'd know it would be very foolish to continue. This is the undisputable evidence you will be able to present later on if needed that you made it completely clear where you stand - they cannot plead ignorance or any other excuse after this. If they continue, they are - in the legal jargon - stuffed.

Do you have Legal Protection on your house insurance? Excellent. Call them up, explain the situation as clearly and dispassionately as you have done for us above, and let them guide you - and they'll almost certainly take the matter on if needed. This will almost certainly just require the 'putting-on-notice/cease and desist' letter - I bet that will do the trick. If you don't have LP, then - tsk - and get in touch with your local CAB (or online) for guidance instead.

But, from what you have told us, this is a very clear case.

One thing I am not fully clear about - "I can clearly prove its our fence, we have photos showing that its inside our boundary line, that the neighbour has staggered their fence back to then attached it directly to our fence and I have the receipt of works in the home pack from the previous owner." The fence in question - 'your' fence - is inside the boundary line? So it isn't even on the boundary? So, by attaching their fence to yours, they are crossing the true boundary? The bounders! That is technically 'criminal trespass' - ie where the criminal act is intentionally carried out on someone else's property. It sadly isn't a capital offence, but if they are compounding the current 'fence' issue by actually coming on to your land, that's a double-bad thing to do, and you'd be entitled to call the local Bobby for this alone (and don't get fobbed off with 'this is a civil matter' - you explain "they are crossing over to your land and causing damage - and telling me to go f-myself when I try to intervene". Ok, the Bobby will be a bit disappointed when they turn up truncheon raised, but - whilst they are there - will make it 100% clear to your neighb to 'cease and desist'.

Your fence, which is near your house and adjacent to this patio, is that also within the true boundary? And there's a low wired fence which marks this true boundary? What is the gap between the two - by how far are they trespassing?!

To answer your other Q - no, the possible granting of PP for this fence will have nothing to do with any dispute they may have with you, or what state the current fence is in - or even where it is. It'll either be granted or it will not, and that will (should) be purely a 'planning' decision taken on its individual merit.

So - if you have LP, call them up. If you don't, contact CAB. You want to be proactive here - don't wait until it has happened. Make it unambiguously clear and evidenced that you are refusing permission for them to touch your fence, and will take action if they persist and/or cause damage.

Jeepers_Creepers

As long as they build their fence on their land - whether it's 6 or 8' high - that isn't an issue for you? Cool.

The boundary on that side - is it your responsibility, or your neighbour's? What is shown on your deeds? ('T' marks)

If it's 'your' responsibility, then don't even let them place their fence on the true 'wire' border - it'll have to be on their side of this.

If it's 'their' boundary', then I think it's reasonable that they can put their new fence on this wire line if they want to.

Oh, and write down an account of every 'conversation' you've had with them about this fence and any other issue. Dated and rough time of each. As verbatim as you can recall, and details like their manner during these exchanges - as factual and thingy as you've always done.