Near completion of RTB maisonette/ downstairs Neighbour dispute/complaint over boundaries.

Julz94

I would like to start with " IT COMING HOME"
Hope someone can help with the issues i'm having or perhaps i'm overthinking it. 

Further to my previous post regarding the purchasing of my RTB maisonette and Lease plans I recently received. 

Now, it's an  end of terrace house converted into two flats, upstairs and downstairs.  Facing the property downstairs has front garden with the front door facing said garden. Upstairs ( me) has his entrance door to the side of the house where the side garden gate is. If i makes any sense. 

Now when moving in years ago,  I was told Downstairs has front garden and you have back half  rear garden. I did not question much as I was more interested in getting the inside of the property to a liveable condition as it was shocking inside but thats beside the point, so i did not question much about the side gate and garden boundaries and whats mine or not.  So I have gone by what the downstairs neighbour has led me to believe all these years whereas what part is my garden and that the side gate is shared. 
When moving in he told me the person prior to me upstairs, he had only seen 3 times in 10 years, and i noticed the rear garden which is owned by upstairs grass has been done. so clearly he has lived there treating the whole property as it his and no one there to say otherwise. 

Until I applied to purchase the flat, The council surveyor once i accepted the offer, had to visit to draw up Lease plans and I was shocked to find out side gate entrance is mine (its the only door that leads to my garden) and the boundaries different to what i was told by downstairs neighbour.
In the meantime as the case file etc was yet to be sent to my solicitors I notified the downstairs neighbour I will be erecting fencing as per boundaries and plans i receive and when i receive them- I did not tell him what surveyor told as I had not seen anything in paper. 

Last week after my appointment with my solicitor lease plans were presented to me and signed etc. 
I presented lease plans to my downstairs neighbour and explained where i will be erecting fencing and side gate key will be changed once purchase goes through as its part of my property. 
Please note my downstairs neighbour is deaf. 

Now, He ignored my letter and lease plans over the weekend and got on the phone to the council on Monday and according to him asked them to clarify as it is  not the same as to what he was told by housing officer 13 years ago. 

On Monday late evening, I received a call from what I believe was a housing officer regarding a complaint the neighbour made regarding my intentions of boundary lines fencing etc.
Funny that whenever i called with an issue i was lucky to get a voicemail after 3 weeks. 
Regardless  I felt intimidated by the housing office as she kept saying it is a communal area. Which it is not the case on the lease plans. 
 I explained to her ( housing officer ) if you can have a copy of the lease plans, you would know there is no complaint to follow up, and causing me nuisance and stress for no reason.  I believe she is not a surveyor, so I doubt she has the right skills to read a drawing made to scale and I doubt she knows what the Red lines mean ( on the lease drawing)   I explained to her further I did not make up the lease plans out my own back, and the council surveyor came over, drawn it up and explained to me what I have explained to the downstairs neighbour.  

she said she will attend at 10am today to look at back garden, she said i did not need to be there and was just making me aware. nevertheless i took a day off work as i felt i needed to be there to explain. she came over took pictures and videos of back garden and gate,  and gave her unneeded opinion that the side gate should be shared. 
Which makes absolutely no sense as the only entrance to my garden and he has his own back door.  I asked her do you need to see lease plans? She said no as she will liaise with Legal team and council surveyor. I said the lease plans I handing over to downstairs neighbour I received from the same people you will liaise with ? Makes no sense. 

She returned 2 hours later to meet downstairs neighbour which they spoke for a great while down the corner off the road.  
I approached the downstairs after and told him bluntly I received a complaint regarding bla bla bla.  He denied he has complained and asked the council to clarify the boundaries, as what the housing officer told him 13 years ago is completely different. my response to that was the housing officer said i will win the lottery does not mean it's true. 

I told him things are going around in circles as the paperwork i gave you, was given by the same Landlord  that owns your property and mine. I did not make it up myself, And the layout on lease plans makes  sense as it is the same situation with all Similar  properties like ours in the borough. Apologies in advance if this comes across rude to anyone here but it is my belief he will play the disabled card to try for the side gate being shared. he kept telling me it will cause me issues, I am struggling to understand as to why it would as i am sure there is plenty   off elderly people that don't have a side gate ( His not old ) just giving an example. 

So I asked him what is your end goal here? 

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

My solicitor advised yes they can but they would need to prove they got it wrong?  

If they do, What are my options? 

Housing officer said she will need to get Deeds from legal team, Are Deeds and lease plans outlining Boundaries two different things? 

I'm not sure if this issue is delaying the sale as i have had no correspondence from legal team, however they are aware of the issue. 

Phew Rant over this issue causing me great stress. 

AdrianC

Julz94 said:

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

They are the freeholder.
They are (currently) the leaseholder.
Yes, they can vary the lease...

My solicitor advised yes they can but they would need to prove they got it wrong?

No, they can change it for whatever reason - or none.

If they do, What are my options?

Buy. Or don't buy.

Julz94

AdrianC said:

Julz94 said:

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

They are the freeholder.
They are (currently) the leaseholder.
Yes, they can vary the lease...

My solicitor advised yes they can but they would need to prove they got it wrong?

No, they can change it for whatever reason - or none.

If they do, What are my options?

Buy. Or don't buy.

Thank you 
That is blunt and to the point. ! 

If they do Change the lease, Surely the price would have to reflect it? 



Would i not have any legal grounds if they suddenly change it after neighbour throws a tantrum? for christ sake he has his own door to his garden!

The council won't budge in my opinion, during the process i offered to purchase the front garden and they denied as its council wide policy to award front garden too  downstairs, so I can't see why they would budge for him. 

might be wrong. 

When they said buying your first property is the most stressful things in life they were not wrong.

user1977

AdrianC said:

Julz94 said:

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

They are the freeholder.
They are (currently) the leaseholder.
Yes, they can vary the lease...

It's not clear from the info given, but (assuming the neighbour is a council tenant) then it's more likely the council simply has a freehold for the building (or indeed the whole estate) and there's not currently a lease for either flat. So the question is really what each tenant is currently entitled to under their tenancy agreements. Often that is a bit hazy as councils don't have great records about where any garden boundaries are, and whoever is drawing up the plans may be making assumptions rather than a site visit.

Julz94

user1977 said:

AdrianC said:

Julz94 said:

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

They are the freeholder.
They are (currently) the leaseholder.
Yes, they can vary the lease...

It's not clear from the info given, but (assuming the neighbour is a council tenant) then it's more likely the council simply has a freehold for the building (or indeed the whole estate) and there's not currently a lease for either flat. So the question is really what each tenant is currently entitled to under their tenancy agreements. Often that is a bit hazy as councils don't have great records about where any garden boundaries are, and whoever is drawing up the plans may be making assumptions rather than a site visit.

Downstairs is council tenant. If they do end up changing lease plans to accommodate him using side gate. which would really annoy me as he has his own bloody garden door. 

my council don't provide detailed tenancy agreements unfortunately. 

AdrianC

user1977 said:

AdrianC said:

Julz94 said:

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

They are the freeholder.
They are (currently) the leaseholder.
Yes, they can vary the lease...

It's not clear from the info given, but (assuming the neighbour is a council tenant) then it's more likely the council simply has a freehold for the building (or indeed the whole estate) and there's not currently a lease for either flat. So the question is really what each tenant is currently entitled to under their tenancy agreements. Often that is a bit hazy as councils don't have great records about where any garden boundaries are, and whoever is drawing up the plans may be making assumptions rather than a site visit.

A good point. In which case, there's no variation of the lease at all - because it will be a new lease.

HampshireH

Julz94 said:

I would like to start with " IT COMING HOME"
Hope someone can help with the issues i'm having or perhaps i'm overthinking it. 

Further to my previous post regarding the purchasing of my RTB maisonette and Lease plans I recently received. 

Now, it's an  end of terrace house converted into two flats, upstairs and downstairs.  Facing the property downstairs has front garden with the front door facing said garden. Upstairs ( me) has his entrance door to the side of the house where the side garden gate is. If i makes any sense. 

Now when moving in years ago,  I was told Downstairs has front garden and you have back half  rear garden. I did not question much as I was more interested in getting the inside of the property to a liveable condition as it was shocking inside but thats beside the point, so i did not question much about the side gate and garden boundaries and whats mine or not.  So I have gone by what the downstairs neighbour has led me to believe all these years whereas what part is my garden and that the side gate is shared. 
When moving in he told me the person prior to me upstairs, he had only seen 3 times in 10 years, and i noticed the rear garden which is owned by upstairs grass has been done. so clearly he has lived there treating the whole property as it his and no one there to say otherwise. 

Until I applied to purchase the flat, The council surveyor once i accepted the offer, had to visit to draw up Lease plans and I was shocked to find out side gate entrance is mine (its the only door that leads to my garden) and the boundaries different to what i was told by downstairs neighbour.
In the meantime as the case file etc was yet to be sent to my solicitors I notified the downstairs neighbour I will be erecting fencing as per boundaries and plans i receive and when i receive them- I did not tell him what surveyor told as I had not seen anything in paper. 

Last week after my appointment with my solicitor lease plans were presented to me and signed etc. 
I presented lease plans to my downstairs neighbour and explained where i will be erecting fencing and side gate key will be changed once purchase goes through as its part of my property. 
Please note my downstairs neighbour is deaf. 

Now, He ignored my letter and lease plans over the weekend and got on the phone to the council on Monday and according to him asked them to clarify as it is  not the same as to what he was told by housing officer 13 years ago. 

On Monday late evening, I received a call from what I believe was a housing officer regarding a complaint the neighbour made regarding my intentions of boundary lines fencing etc.
Funny that whenever i called with an issue i was lucky to get a voicemail after 3 weeks. 
Regardless  I felt intimidated by the housing office as she kept saying it is a communal area. Which it is not the case on the lease plans. 
 I explained to her ( housing officer ) if you can have a copy of the lease plans, you would know there is no complaint to follow up, and causing me nuisance and stress for no reason.  I believe she is not a surveyor, so I doubt she has the right skills to read a drawing made to scale and I doubt she knows what the Red lines mean ( on the lease drawing)   I explained to her further I did not make up the lease plans out my own back, and the council surveyor came over, drawn it up and explained to me what I have explained to the downstairs neighbour.  

she said she will attend at 10am today to look at back garden, she said i did not need to be there and was just making me aware. nevertheless i took a day off work as i felt i needed to be there to explain. she came over took pictures and videos of back garden and gate,  and gave her unneeded opinion that the side gate should be shared. 
Which makes absolutely no sense as the only entrance to my garden and he has his own back door.  I asked her do you need to see lease plans? She said no as she will liaise with Legal team and council surveyor. I said the lease plans I handing over to downstairs neighbour I received from the same people you will liaise with ? Makes no sense. 

She returned 2 hours later to meet downstairs neighbour which they spoke for a great while down the corner off the road.  
I approached the downstairs after and told him bluntly I received a complaint regarding bla bla bla.  He denied he has complained and asked the council to clarify the boundaries, as what the housing officer told him 13 years ago is completely different. my response to that was the housing officer said i will win the lottery does not mean it's true. 

I told him things are going around in circles as the paperwork i gave you, was given by the same Landlord  that owns your property and mine. I did not make it up myself, And the layout on lease plans makes  sense as it is the same situation with all Similar  properties like ours in the borough. Apologies in advance if this comes across rude to anyone here but it is my belief he will play the disabled card to try for the side gate being shared. he kept telling me it will cause me issues, I am struggling to understand as to why it would as i am sure there is plenty   off elderly people that don't have a side gate ( His not old ) just giving an example. 

So I asked him what is your end goal here? 

Now my question is, Me being so close to completion of sale. Can the council legal team change lease plans to accommodate the downstairs ?

My solicitor advised yes they can but they would need to prove they got it wrong?  

If they do, What are my options? 

Housing officer said she will need to get Deeds from legal team, Are Deeds and lease plans outlining Boundaries two different things? 

I'm not sure if this issue is delaying the sale as i have had no correspondence from legal team, however they are aware of the issue. 

Phew Rant over this issue causing me great stress. 

Wow!

As a housing officer historically leasehold deeds and title plans crossed my desk frequently. I didn't need to be a surveyor to read or understand them.

I doubt they are the first time she has come across such paperwork 

Presumably you understand them?

It's the housing officers job to check into a complaint and to mediate any issues and also to protect the asset if there were an error.

So it is to be expected she would look into this once raised.

That said;

If plans have been drawn up and signed and all agreed then you do not need to notify the neighbour the council should be aware.

Her job would therefore be checking your account of things is accurate by liaising with her colleagues and relaying this to the neighbour.

You asked him what his end goal is but haven't shared his answer. What did he say?

I cannot see how "the disability card" as you put it would influence anything to do with a gate which goes to land not his.

Unless however the path leading to the garden communal.

Julz94

Wow!

As a housing officer historically leasehold deeds and title plans crossed my desk frequently. I didn't need to be a surveyor to read or understand them.

I doubt they are the first time she has come across such paperwork 

Presumably you understand them?

It's the housing officers job to check into a complaint and to mediate any issues and also to protect the asset if there were an error.

So it is to be expected she would look into this once raised.

That said;

If plans have been drawn up and signed and all agreed then you do not need to notify the neighbour the council should be aware.

Her job would therefore be checking your account of things is accurate by liaising with her colleagues and relaying this to the neighbour.

You asked him what his end goal is but haven't shared his answer. What did he say?

I cannot see how "the disability card" as you put it would influence anything to do with a gate which goes to land not his.

Unless however the path leading to the garden communal.

Your post made me feel a bit more calm about the situation. 
 You think this is all formality in your opinion?  Have you dealt with something similar ? 

To say the least, I regret making the downstairs neighbour aware of anything to be honest . I should off once sale goes through, erect fencing, change key and let the council deal with his tantrums.  

Yes, I understand the lease plans. took me a day to get my head around it but it's expected as its the first i have seen in my lifetime and a 1st time buyer. Also  hence why it really annoyed me as to why do you have the need to call me over the phone and tell me you can't change the key to a communal side gate when if you look at the plans you would see i am not wrong. I kept asking her do you not see the marking Edged in Red that clearly outlines what is part of my lease. 

as mentioned in post, I sent neighbour lease plans, in addition to a drawing i made him using highlighters pen to make it very idiot proof. 

 Plans have been drawn up, sent to my solicitors i agreed and signed but considering the sale is not complete it it's making me nervous as the council might produce a new plan to accommodate the downstairs by changing the side gate into communal-which my privacy in my garden goes out the window. 
 I tend to think the worse regarding the 'disability card', but i can not see either why it would influence anything to with the side gate either. but you never know! 

When i asked him whats his end goal- his response was i feel grievance as i have been misinformed for the past 13 years!  So i said to him what do you expect? The best you will get is a sorry. You also can't prove what the housing officer told you 13 years ago and not to be rude, you are deaf so there is a chance you did not understand them correctly, also kept saying i feel naive and stupid believing it was mine. 

Lastly after our brief 5-10min visit in the morning, I let her through to side gate, so she can check, took pictures and a video. which also baffles me as if you have plans you do not need to come check anything in my opinion.

is it normal for them to go for a chat in the corner of the road so I don't hear their conversation?  Forgot to add, I asked neighbour in conclusion what has she told you? she asked them(neighbour ) to write a list of questions they have for them??

Can the housing officer go back to legal team and say you need to rethink lease plans due to his disability he needs side gate? 

Everyone might be thinking its just a side gate, but the side gate entrance is 2 metres wide going back at least 12 metres to my rear of garden. 

Slinky

Is your property in a road of similar properties? Do you have neighbours in other buildings who you could check what the situation is with their gardens? May give you some amunition if everybody else has a garden how you want yours to be.

Julz94

Slinky said:

Is your property in a road of similar properties? Do you have neighbours in other buildings who you could check what the situation is with their gardens? May give you some amunition if everybody else has a garden how you want yours to be.

Yes, my neighbour on my left to be precise. same layout same situation. 

Norman_Castle

Julz94 said:
Everyone might be thinking its just a side gate, but the side gate entrance is 2 metres wide going back at least 12 metres to my rear of garden. 

As the rear garden is split into two couldn't the area alongside the property be communal with a second gate between it and your garden and a gate into the downstairs garden?