Self Isolation whilst on holiday. Can Employer Discipline us if not works time?

Bigzosso

My wife, 42year old daughter and I are due to go on holiday to Spain (Amber country at the moment) on 3-26 September 2021. I feel the 10 days self-isolation rule will be removed from Spain, on returning to the UK, soon.

However, I said to my daughter (41) we will go anyway and if the self-isolation is still in place, I will cut short our holiday by 11 days and change our return flights back to the UK to the 16th September, then we can self-isolate for 10 days back at home during the remainder  of our authorised absence leave and return to work, as we would have done anyway, on Monday the 27th September.

This would mean her/our self-isolation period will not affect us with missing work and needing extra time off, as it will be done whilst still on our employer approved leave dates off work.

She says her employer has told staff, anyone who self-isolates during/whilst still on holiday/leave, will face disciplinary action on their normal return to work and will not be paid their holiday pay for the time they were self-isolating (even though they have granted that time off as holidays)!

Can they do that? Surely, if they have granted her holiday time off work, whether that period of time is spent in Spain, Surrey or inside our house (self-isolating) in Wigan, it is irrelevant to the employer as it is during the days off they granted?

 

Please advise as we will lose a lot of money if we abide by what her employer is threatening, should she have to self-isolate at home, during her authorised leave period.

 

Hopefully by 3 September we will know if self-isolation from Spain is not required but until we know this is causing us, as a family, a lot of stress and worry.

Andy_L

You would not be self-isolating, you would be quarantining on return. Does that make a difference

I suspect that the employer doesn't want them to use holiday because they want them to get sick pay/government grant instead of normal pay.

What has her employer actually said in full rather than passed on highlights?

Grumpy_chap

My wife had a similar statement at her previous employer - anyone who goes away abroad and needs to quarantine on return won't be coming back to this company to work.

There are no terms in the contract that explicitly allow for dismissal for that reason, but there are ways the employer can force the issue.  One example is that standard permitted annual leave is no more than 2 weeks in a continuous length, so a one week (7 days) holiday plus 10 days isolation cannot be fitted in. This is a restriction mechanism that the employer can legitimately use.  There are likely other legitimate techniques.

I suspect, also, that the employer does not want people taking the time as sickness, especially if there is any enhancement of sick pay over-and-above SSP.  I note @Andy_L takes the opposite interpretation with regard to the application of sick pay.  This is likely to vary between employers.

I imagine that if travel restrictions remain in place, employers will find some mechanism to facilitate the process of quarantine as a routine.  The alternative is that employees find ways to circumnavigate the rules by simply not declaring where they might travel to while on annual leave (or, even worse, not self isolating if required) - that is less desirable than a managed process.  On top of that, some that are working from home might simply not declare the travel, and self-isolate but never declare it to the employer.

In the OP's case, there is already an extended holiday planned in excess of what many employers routinely allow.  To add another two weeks to that could be challenging for the employer to accommodate - particularly so in a small team / business.  It would be well-worth understanding what exactly was said, what the penalty would be, and how that would be implemented within the constraints of the employment contract.  

Jeremy535897

Grumpy_chap said:

My wife had a similar statement at her previous employer - anyone who goes away abroad and needs to quarantine on return won't be coming back to this company to work.

There are no terms in the contract that explicitly allow for dismissal for that reason, but there are ways the employer can force the issue.  One example is that standard permitted annual leave is no more than 2 weeks in a continuous length, so a one week (7 days) holiday plus 10 days isolation cannot be fitted in. This is a restriction mechanism that the employer can legitimately use.  There are likely other legitimate techniques.

I suspect, also, that the employer does not want people taking the time as sickness, especially if there is any enhancement of sick pay over-and-above SSP.  I note @Andy_L takes the opposite interpretation with regard to the application of sick pay.  This is likely to vary between employers.

I imagine that if travel restrictions remain in place, employers will find some mechanism to facilitate the process of quarantine as a routine.  The alternative is that employees find ways to circumnavigate the rules by simply not declaring where they might travel to while on annual leave (or, even worse, not self isolating if required) - that is less desirable than a managed process.  On top of that, some that are working from home might simply not declare the travel, and self-isolate but never declare it to the employer.

In the OP's case, there is already an extended holiday planned in excess of what many employers routinely allow.  To add another two weeks to that could be challenging for the employer to accommodate - particularly so in a small team / business.  It would be well-worth understanding what exactly was said, what the penalty would be, and how that would be implemented within the constraints of the employment contract.  

I read the OP as saying that they had agreed with their employer that they would take an amount of annual leave which will accommodate both the shortened holiday period and the quarantine (instead of a longer holiday abroad), so would not be one day later back to work, would not ask for any extra holiday, and would not seek sick pay. I am not clear why an employer should care?

Grumpy_chap

Jeremy535897 said:

I am not clear why an employer should care?

I'd agree - the only matter of concern to the employer what an employee does with their annual leave is if the employee does something that is to the detriment of the employer's business.  Not the case here.

Andy_L

Jeremy535897 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

My wife had a similar statement at her previous employer - anyone who goes away abroad and needs to quarantine on return won't be coming back to this company to work.

There are no terms in the contract that explicitly allow for dismissal for that reason, but there are ways the employer can force the issue.  One example is that standard permitted annual leave is no more than 2 weeks in a continuous length, so a one week (7 days) holiday plus 10 days isolation cannot be fitted in. This is a restriction mechanism that the employer can legitimately use.  There are likely other legitimate techniques.

I suspect, also, that the employer does not want people taking the time as sickness, especially if there is any enhancement of sick pay over-and-above SSP.  I note @Andy_L takes the opposite interpretation with regard to the application of sick pay.  This is likely to vary between employers.

I imagine that if travel restrictions remain in place, employers will find some mechanism to facilitate the process of quarantine as a routine.  The alternative is that employees find ways to circumnavigate the rules by simply not declaring where they might travel to while on annual leave (or, even worse, not self isolating if required) - that is less desirable than a managed process.  On top of that, some that are working from home might simply not declare the travel, and self-isolate but never declare it to the employer.

In the OP's case, there is already an extended holiday planned in excess of what many employers routinely allow.  To add another two weeks to that could be challenging for the employer to accommodate - particularly so in a small team / business.  It would be well-worth understanding what exactly was said, what the penalty would be, and how that would be implemented within the constraints of the employment contract.  

I read the OP as saying that they had agreed with their employer that they would take an amount of annual leave which will accommodate both the shortened holiday period and the quarantine (instead of a longer holiday abroad), so would not be one day later back to work, would not ask for any extra holiday, and would not seek sick pay. I am not clear why an employer should care?

Thinking about it I suspect they've misunderstood the rules and think you can't use leave to cover being off sick. Or there's been a miscommunication somewhere on the employer-daughter-OP chain

silvercar

Returning from Amber countries won’t require isolation from July 19 for those that are double vaccinated, so your problems disappear.

MattMattMattUK

My guess the communication has not been clear or has been misunderstood and what they may mean is that you can not take ten day holiday, then the another ten days off work to self-isopate/quarantine, as that would be twenty days off work when only ten days were authorised. 

Bigzosso

Thanks everyone. a year ago they agreed to the 3-27 holiday dates, back to work on 28th. I think they would be in trouble if we isolated/quarantined or call it anything else, during those dates already agreed off work and still turned up for work on the 28th after 10 days "chilling at home in the garden" isolation as it does not affect the company at all. As it happens, today the government has said no more self isolation from Amber countries so it is no longer a problem. Thank you for all your input

Pennywise

silvercar said:

Returning from Amber countries won’t require isolation from July 19 for those that are double vaccinated, so your problems disappear.

That's assuming the destination country doesn't change from amber to red whilst they're there!