Yet Another Land Registry Scammer

maisie_cat

When searching for any government website always add gov.uk into the search so landregistry.gov.uk takes you straight there. With "passport renewal gov.uk"  the correct website is the first result although with "driving licence renewal gov.uk"  it's the 3rd item down.

Falafels

The only thing I can say to the OP is 'Lesson learned'.

The official government websites all start with 'https://www.gov.uk/'.

If you do a generic search concerning any official documents - passports, driving licences - top of the list will be companies offering these services at inflated prices. They usually have 'Ad' at the start of the google entry, and somewhere on the website it will issue a disclaimer to the effect that they are not affiliated to HM Government or the relevant department - which https://www.landregistryonline.org.uk/ does, too.

This is different to 'copycat websites' which actually use the branding and logos of the official sites, and have led to convictions in the past. More here: https://www.getsafeonline.org/personal/articles/copycat-websites/.  If you read to the bottom of the article, it makes the following suggestion - but I don't know how effective this would be, given that your land registry site did actually issue the disclaimer.

'If you think you have been misled into overpaying by using an unofficial site:

• Contact the site to insist on a refund, saying you think you were misled.
• Contact the relevant government department or agency or local government organisation and report the copycat site.'

When I was looking to change the address on my driving licence, top of my search was a company offering to take care of all driving licence needs for a cool £80 per annum - no hidden costs - though it did concede that you can apply direct to DVLA for a reduced cost. Tricky call but I decided on balance that I'd let DVLA do it for free!

Tokmon

naedanger said:

CKhalvashi said:

naedanger said:

user1977 said:

planckfund said:

you're not getting it --- actually they are attempting to misrepresent themselves as being mcdonalds themselves supplying you with their burgers  - when in fact they are buying them as third parties and selling them on with a markup-----this means that you will not have a contractual relationship with MdDonalds and, for example, if you get food poisoning, you will not be able to sue McDonalds because they never sold you anything, only rinky dinky morally-challenged Stephen Olliver.. This is misrepresentation.  

I can't see how you're disadvantaged in that way - the information they're providing is genuinely from the Land Registry, and it makes no difference to the Land Registry's warranty whether that info is gained via a third party or not.

Did you read his post? They were tricked into paying £79 for something that was available for £3.

I think the technical term is "passing off" and in my view it doesn't say much for the goverment's commitment to consumer protection that they are permitting companies do it to the government's own websites.

They weren't though. The OP said themselves that the website states it's a limited company, who will check the application and send it to the LR on behalf of the OP. This is what OP has paid £76 for them to do.

Is it any different in reality to the Post Office 'check and send' service I used for my passport application about 6 years ago before everything went online? They had a quick browse of the form and sent my form to HMPO for IIRC £11, as they were paid to do.

Do you honestly believe that? The post office is actually providing a useful service and you knew exactly what you were paying and what you got in return.

Do you really, honestly think this company isn't relying on the bulk of their clients not realising they are just an expensive middleman?

But is the post office actually providing a useful service? The passport forms come with a very through guide on how to fill them out and on all of the one's i have done myself and countersigned there has never been any issue with the form sent to them directly so in reality the service isn't that useful. 

In the OP's case they knew exactly what they were paying because they were given the price before they went ahead with the purchase and they knew exactly what they were getting which was documents from the land registry. The only dispute they have is with the price and as everyone knows prices vary depending on where you buy things.

I can understand why people get annoyed at these sites but in reality if they paid a bit more attention and actually read what was on the screen before making a payment they wouldn't have had any issues.

If people read things and paid attention before making any financial decision/payment in general then there wouldn't be half as many posts on this forum about problems they are having.

planckfund

My last word on the subject.

I can only restate that this company entire business model is to obtain customers by deceptively claiming to be the Land Registry ---- it is obvious that no real service is being offered, and it is clear that anyone able and willing to fully read their website will not buy their 'product' as it offers absolutely no advantages to the real website, and indeed several real disadvantages. For example, as you have not purchased the copy of title directly from the LR, you have no legal comeback with LR if the information within it has been altered or is incorrect, deliberately or accidentally by the agent. This is quite a different situation to one where for example a solicitor or surveyor obtains documentation on your behalf as part of their service, since, though they might charge you an eye-watering premium, you are covered by their trade bodies, legislation,  insurance and personally in the event of deception, fraud etc. In addition your enquiry is delayed by being processed through this clowns. That is why it is simply a different product and is misrepresentation.

The argument that most people would not be fooled is tendentious: clearly some people, such as myself and others, are. The website is intended to catch the unwary: though there is a statement stating that this is a separate company and not Land Registry hidden below from the first screen you see, and far below the prominent 'start search' button, it is clearly designed to channel people quickly to the linked page where there is no such readily visible statement without further ado. The intent is clear: deception. This is what scammers often claim, and have since forever,which is that if you provide an opportunity for people to read that you're a scam in the small print, you cannot be a scam.

Deliveroo, Justeat etc do not, in fact,  have websites that imitate McDonalds and the contractual relationship between McDonalds, yourself and Deliveroo is clearly stated and not to the customer's evident disadvantage. Nor do they bill you as 'McDonalds Online' but are clearly independently branded. If they did, McDonalds would be onto them like a shot, I'm sure you'd agree.

Some people claim that real service is being offered by these scammers --- in the sense that they are 'checking' your entries: of course this in reality is purely a laughable figleaf over their real business, which is to obtain money by deception. Any more than if McDonalds Online were to claim they were checking your order was valid and charge you ten times the price of your real bill ....

Some of responses (trolls?) reply (with some glee) that I must have been silly, or buyer beware, this is a lesson for me to learn or that I should have been aware that the Land Registry has not been privatised, and that all govt owned businesses use gov.uk as website domains. I am lucky: I wanted to quickly look up some information for a significant transaction, so the small amount of money wasted is of little consequence to me.  The irritation and time-wasting was. Sadly, It does, however, illustrate how dangerous the UK has become for all of us, and how untrustworthy government institutions and others such as the LR have become, as they seem unwilling to forcefully publicise their services and vigorously defend their reputation. This is what makes them so vulnerable to privatisation. It is clear that the worst affected by this scam will, as ever, be the poorest and most vulnerable. For many on this thread, this seems just and fair because people should look after themselves and not rely on the nanny state to keep them safe. I cannot agree with this philosophy and I can't believe it's in anyone's interest that it should be the case. It is my regret that this sort of selfish libertarian Trump nonsense has become something of the norm is this country and it is a really telling sign of decadence and sleaze and lack of faith in state institutions. And that's why I'm out.

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babyblade41

you just needed to read the ad that you clicked on, at least you know now for future reference ..
you can download the files from LR instantly and as you now know too cost 3.00 per item and have various search functions which are excellent when you don't have an address

No one has scammed you but if you are thinking about buying  a property then remember to do your due diligence carefully and not rush in without reading the small print 

74jax

babyblade41 said:

you just needed to read the ad that you clicked on, at least you know now for future reference ..
you can download the files from LR instantly and as you now know too cost 3.00 per item and have various search functions which are excellent when you don't have an address

No one has scammed you but if you are thinking about buying  a property then remember to do your due diligence carefully and not rush in without reading the small print 

Excellent advice 

eidand

i love how everybody else is at fault for this .... it's Brexit's fault, wait, it's the entire England's fault. All it takes is a bit of attention to read what you're clicking. 

user1977

user1977 said:

planckfund said:

the  real site is actually hard to find

In what way? Do a Google search for "Land Registry" and the whole first page of results are either pages within HM Land Registry's website, the (official) Scottish land Register, HMLR's Twitter feed, or the Wikipedia page about HMLR. I need to go on to the second page of results before any of the scam-esque people appear.

We never got an explanation for why the official site is "actually hard to find". I can understand perhaps people being distracted by adverts, but I'm not sure how you can fail to find the official site if you're looking for it.

Section62

eidand said:

i love how everybody else is at fault for this .... it's Brexit's fault, wait, it's the entire England's fault. All it takes is a bit of attention to read what you're clicking. 

Quite.

Similar websites have been around since government bodies first started online services.  There was a big story back in 2005 when one of the LR 'service' sites did get into trouble for including .gov within their address.  I'm not sure how "selfish libertarian Trump nonsense" or "sleazy old post-Brexit Britain" could have been involved in the emergence of those sites, at that time.

The root cause of the OP falling for this 'service' was their belief that LR had been privatised, and that privatisation would have caused the cost of the service to increase circa 20x.

Many scams (which I don't think this 'service' is) rely on people's over confidence and belief they are correct (even when there is clear indications to the contrary).  That will only change when people are less confident in their own beliefs, and more willing to do the research before parting with their money.  MSE is an excellent source of research material - provided people use it before clicking on 'pay now'.

lookstraightahead

Irrespective of anything, how did you pay £79 without noticing? 

It takes a while and some concentration to get the correct LR info - so relative to that I can't see how you were in such a rush that you didn't see the price.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but doesn't everyone check how much they're paying for something?