Symbio confusing billing - possible VAT errors.

Hitstirrer

Joined Symbio for cheap energy and aware of the weird account system at the start. First bill and DD based on an over estimate of usage of course but as I understood it this would be adjusted over time as real usage by actual meter readings, supported by photos of the meter, were submitted. Second month bill again estimated the reading at that month end, again an over estimate, but deducted the difference between the first estimate and the real usage from the new estimate. So that the running adjustment was working as advertised. So far so good. 

However, looking closer, I see that in the first overestimate I was charged VAT on that high figure. But when the adjustment was made next month to reduce usage by the difference, as mentioned above, that was translated into a price figure BEFORE VAT. And that sum was deducted from the new bill to produce the DD figure for the next month. SO --- I have been charged VAT on the number of units that they overestimated but not refunded that part of the VAT that was charged. 

I have confirmed that by creating my own account for the actual units consumed last month at the unit price and daily rate cost + VAT to come up with what the cost last month should have been. 

Then deducted the refunded cost of units in the next bill from the new DD price. 

The difference between these two amounts is precisely the VAT amount due on the difference between the estimated and actual units. 

I will wait for next months bill to see if this overpayment of VAT has continued before raising this issue with them. But meanwhile, I wonder if there is anyone out there willing to check their own bills for this anomaly because if I am right ( unlikely as I can't believe that my suspicion is accurate when something like VAT is involved) then this could be huge. If this is true,where is that overpayment of VAT going? And does it happen with all of their customers? Huge sums involved if that is the case.

Anybody out there willing to check my suspicion and either confirm it or show me that I'm wrong. 

SPOWER

The bills even confuse myself.  I am a former employee at ScottishPower and Britsh Gas and also I am as sharp as a tac. Hashtag confused but I will go back and ckeck my 2 bills.  Many thanks for sharing.

Reed_Richards

My bill comprises a charge for a huge overestimate of the number of units I will use in July then a refund for the number of units l used in June below their estimate.  Then the standing charge.  The three figures are added together and  then VAT applied.  If there is an error in the calculation then I cannot spot it.  

molerat

My bill clearly deducts the pre vat excess units from the pre vat estimated units.

Bill 1 - 100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50

Bill 2 - 100 units at 10p = £10 - 20 excess = £2 = £8 + vat = £8.40

Total billed units = 180 = £18 + vat = £18.90

Alternative method

100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50

100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50 - 20 units = £2.00 + vat = £2.10 = £8.40

Total of bills = £18.90

Both work out the same, the vat is being refunded.  Similar to when you receive £68 extra in your pay packet, the employer deducts £100 from your next gross pay so you get £68 less in the pay packet.

Tallerdave

There isn't a VAT issue as you describe.  I've spent many many hours reverse engineering their obscure billing (including free units) and have an Excel sheet to track my bills. 

There is an error though, and that is that the reconciliation against estimated units is done at the unit rate on the current bill and not the rate on the previous bill that they were charged at. Not a problem when your tariff hasn't changed but a real error if it has. They re-issued my bills when I told them, but it's anybody's guess whether they'll fix the billing system.

Tallerdave

Hope this helps:

Month 1 Estimate 100 units at 10p = £10, with VAT £10.50 paid.

Say only 50 units used.

Month 2 Estimate 100 units at 10p = £10
Credit for 50 units not used at 10p = -£5
Net balance £10-£5=£5,  with VAT £5.25 paid

150 units paid for, should be £15+VAT = £15.75 which is exactly what you've paid. 

niktheguru

To be honest, none of their fictitional estimating and rebating shenanigans matter as long as you are on a fixed or seasonal direct debit. 
Just make sure you are providing monthly meter reads.
At the end of your contract (or when you decide to switch) make sure you do the manual calculation from your opening and closing readings using your standing charge and tariff unit rates and accurately calculate how much you owe. Ensure it is only that which is paid, and by looking at your final bill (if they ever produce one - still waiting for mine) you'll be able to see if it is accurate. 

molerat

I am sure in the new world of fixed DD they can manage to make that 1/12th EAC + 30% so building up a nice bit of credit.

Hitstirrer

niktheguru said:

To be honest, none of their fictitional estimating and rebating shenanigans matter as long as you are on a fixed or seasonal direct debit. 
Just make sure you are providing monthly meter reads.
At the end of your contract (or when you decide to switch) make sure you do the manual calculation from your opening and closing readings using your standing charge and tariff unit rates and accurately calculate how much you owe. Ensure it is only that which is paid, and by looking at your final bill (if they ever produce one - still waiting for mine) you'll be able to see if it is accurate. 

I have already accepted that trying to reconcile the monthly nonsense they produce is an exercise in futility. And I have also just decided to keep close tabs on the monthly data in a spreadsheet that reconstructs the actual usage monthly and enables calculations in an understandable form to keep a running net balance of all overpayments caused by their byzantine methods. As you say, I will always be aware of the net credit balance over the months and able to leap on it if it gets out of hand. Then, at year-end, I will be in a position to print off a true account and be able to check their own calculation of the refund due when I exit. After all, this is always transparent. It's not an opinion about how much you owe them. It's pure maths. 

Hitstirrer

molerat said:

My bill clearly deducts the pre vat excess units from the pre vat estimated units.

Bill 1 - 100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50

Bill 2 - 100 units at 10p = £10 - 20 excess = £2 = £8 + vat = £8.40

Total billed units = 180 = £18 + vat = £18.90

Alternative method

100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50

100 units at 10p = £10 + vat = £10.50 - 20 units = £2.00 + vat = £2.10 = £8.40

Total of bills = £18.90

Both work out the same, the vat is being refunded.  Similar to when you receive £68 extra in your pay packet, the employer deducts £100 from your next gross pay so you get £68 less in the pay packet.

Thanks for that. I have now had another look at things and also reconstructed the bill as if it was a normal account and it does come out the same. But it is a convoluted way to get there. I will just keep an eye on the overall figures at year end and compare with my own reconstructed spreadsheet. If that is different then is when the fun starts. 

Tallerdave

Effectively there isn't a refund occurring because they simply knock something off the next batch of units they're charging you for. You then pay VAT on the ones you pay for. Where it might go wrong is when the bill is actually negative.  I'll go back and look at my negative bill.

If it seems complex now, you can imagine the head scratching during their free units phase!!