Buying Second Hand Car Question

akira181

I've just put a deposit on a second hand car at a local independent dealer.  It's in pretty good condition for a 13 plate, average mileage, and drives well.  The only issues were the stank of a smokers car (just in, not yet valeted), a ciggy burn on the back seat, and an engine management light (my code reader said it was a glow plug).  It was advertised as FSH but there was no record of the first two services, although the dealer ensures me they were done, just lost with the service book.  Every other service receipt is there. 

They said they will fix the glow plug issue, do a full service, and thorough valet to get rid of the smell and bring the upholstery back to spotless condition.  The dealer is also touting an AA Warranty but I'm not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on as the AA booklet doesn't define what constitutes "wear and tear".  With a 13 plate, surely most issues could be classed as wear and tear.

If they can get rid of the EML and smoker smell, I'm happy to take the car.  If I do take it, I am planning to get my mechanic to look it over and change the transmission fluid as I trust my mechanic more than an unknown dealers mechanic.  If my mechanic finds any faults, where do I stand?  Can I insist the dealer fixes any potential faults? 

AdrianC

akira181 said:

I've just put a deposit on a second hand car at a local dealer.  It's in pretty good condition for a 13 plate, average mileage, and drives well.  The only issues were the stank of a smokers car (just in, not yet valeted), a ciggy burn on the back seat, and an engine management light (my code reader said it was a glow plug).  It was advertised as FSH but there was no record of the first two services, although the dealer ensures me they were done, just lost with the service book.  Every other service receipt is there. 

They said they will fix the glow plug issue, do a full service, and thorough valet to get rid of the smell and bring the upholstery back to spotless condition.  The dealer is also touting an AA Warranty but I'm not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on as the AA booklet doesn't define what constitutes "wear and tear".  With a 13 plate, surely most issues could be classed as wear and tear.

13 plate in 2021 means an 8yo car.
Will a lot of issues on an 8yo car be due to perfectly normal wear? Yes.
Average age at scrapping is just under 14yrs. It's over half way there. Things will fail through wear.

If you want a non-worn car, buy one 8 years younger than this one. And, yes, it'll cost you more.

If they can get rid of the EML and smoker smell, I'm happy to take the car.

Have to admit, it sounds like one I'd be walking away from - even on the tiny information you've given us...

If I do take it, I am planning to get my mechanic to look it over and change the transmission fluid as I trust my mechanic more than an unknown dealers mechanic.  If my mechanic finds any faults, where do I stand?

Outside his premises, waiting for a taxi home, probably.

Can I insist the dealer fixes any potential faults?

Of course you can insist.
He will almost certainly disagree, no matter how loudly you insist.

Then what?

Ultimately, you could issue a court claim against him for the cost of the work - or you would return the car and issue a claim for a refund of the cost.

Would you win? Depends. But I wouldn't bet the house on it.

Remember, your consumer rights give you comeback for faults that are not reasonable to expect of used goods of that age, value, and apparent condition. This is a scruffy 8yo car with a patchy history.

MalMonroe

Why on earth would you be happy taking on such a vehicle? You say "It's in pretty good condition" but then list all the faults. There are lots of used cars out there - I'm sure you could do better if you had a good look around.

If it were me, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I agree totally with AdrianC.

akira181

mate, I was just asking for advice, why do you need to be snide about it?  I can do the maths and obviously a younger car will potentially have less issues.  If I had money to burn, I'd look for less than 5 years or even buy brand new.  But I don't have that privilege. 

Other than it being 8 years old, I don't know what makes you think it's "scruffy".  One owner on the V5, drives well, no funny sounds, no rust, not even a scratch on the paint or wheels.  A glow plug is basic if that's all there is to it and a ciggy burn is purely cosmetic.  7 service receipts, 2015 to 2021, and allegedly the first 2 were done isn't what I would call patchy either.  Doesn't make sense for someone to skip the first two and then get one every year/10k subsequently so I'm giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you've just had the luxury of never needing to buy an older car.

Since the dealer states "All their cars are inspected, MOT'd, and all faults/failures repaired prior to sale" and my mechanic finds a fault the day I take it home, it's clearly a pre-existing fault.  Naturally I'm not talking about a rusty wheel nut or thin brake pads but rather something major like a failing brake line.  I was asking if there is a legal requirement for the dealer to offer a repair/refund for such.

akira181

MalMonroe said:

Why on earth would you be happy taking on such a vehicle? You say "It's in pretty good condition" but then list all the faults. There are lots of used cars out there - I'm sure you could do better if you had a good look around.

If it were me, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I agree totally with AdrianC.

because the only mechanical fault I'm aware of is a glow plug, which is basic.  The bodywork is better than most 8 year old cars out there.  The rest are cosmetic.  The dealer claims the smoker smell can be solved with a thorough valet and the ciggy burn is small and I can cover it with a seat cover. 

I've been looking for a month now and I need a car for my new job in a few weeks.  Time and surplus cash are not on my side

*I could potentially find a slightly newer one in budget if I went private, but I feel that's risker as consumer rights laws goes out the window then

AdrianC

akira181 said:

mate, I was just asking for advice, why do you need to be snide about it?

Snide or realistic?

I can do the maths

Good. Then let's be honest about it, and not try to pretend 13-plate is anything but 8yo.

and obviously a younger car will potentially have less issues.  If I had money to burn, I'd look for less than 5 years or even buy brand new.  But I don't have that privilege.

So don't expect a brand new car.

Expect one with age-related wear and other issues.

Other than it being 8 years old, I don't know what makes you think it's "scruffy".

Missing histories, interior needing burn repairs, and you will NEVER get the smell of smoke out - not long-term.

Perhaps you've just had the luxury of never needing to buy an older car.

<chuckle>
I've only ever once bought a car younger than 8yo. The youngest in my current fleet is 16yo, bought last year.

Since the dealer states "All their cars are inspected, MOT'd, and all faults/failures repaired prior to sale"

Meaningless marketing guff.

"Inspected"? A quick once-over counts as "inspected".
"MOTd"? Bare minimum legal requirement for any car on the road.
"ALL faults/failures repaired prior to sale"? Yeh, right...

and my mechanic finds a fault the day I take it home, it's clearly a pre-existing fault. Naturally I'm not talking about a rusty wheel nut or thin brake pads but rather something major like a failing brake line.

After 8yrs? Wear and tear. Age-related failure.

Replacing a brake pipe is rarely a major job, anyway - if it's a flexi, it's trivial. If it's a steel line, it depends on the routing - but since brake fluid should be changed every couple of years anyway...

I was asking if there is a legal requirement for the dealer to offer a repair/refund for such.

As I said... Only insofar as it's not reasonable to expect issues of that kind on used goods of that age, value, apparent condition.

As soon as somebody else works on the car, there's the "But they caused that!" risk.

Ultimately, if the vendor disagrees with your claim for recompense, you need to return the car physically, then launch a small claim for the value.

Flight3287462

Glow plugs are a PITA and I would want them all done, you want the risk of changing them to be the dealers problem and not yours.

Grumpy_chap

akira181 said:

It's in pretty good condition for a 13 plate, average mileage, and drives well. 

stank of a smokers car (just in, not yet valeted),

a ciggy burn on the back seat,

and an engine management light (my code reader said it was a glow plug). 

It was advertised as FSH but there was no record of the first two services, although the dealer ensures me they were done, just lost with the service book.  Every other service receipt is there. 

They said they will fix the glow plug issue, do a full service, and thorough valet to get rid of the smell and bring the upholstery back to spotless condition.  The dealer is also touting an AA Warranty but I'm not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on as the AA booklet doesn't define what constitutes "wear and tear".  With a 13 plate, surely most issues could be classed as wear and tear.

If they can get rid of the EML and smoker smell, I'm happy to take the car.  If I do take it, I am planning to get my mechanic to look it over and change the transmission fluid as I trust my mechanic more than an unknown dealers mechanic.  If my mechanic finds any faults, where do I stand?  Can I insist the dealer fixes any potential faults? 

akira181 said:

One owner on the V5

A glow plug is basic if that's all there is to it and a ciggy burn is purely cosmetic. 

7 service receipts, 2015 to 2021, and allegedly the first 2 were done isn't what I would call patchy either.  Doesn't make sense for someone to skip the first two and then get one every year/10k subsequently so I'm giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt. 

Since the dealer states "All their cars are inspected, MOT'd, and all faults/failures repaired prior to sale" and my mechanic finds a fault the day I take it home, it's clearly a pre-existing fault.  Naturally I'm not talking about a rusty wheel nut or thin brake pads but rather something major like a failing brake line.  I was asking if there is a legal requirement for the dealer to offer a repair/refund for such.

akira181 said:

because the only mechanical fault I'm aware of is a glow plug, which is basic.  The bodywork is better than most 8 year old cars out there.  The rest are cosmetic.  The dealer claims the smoker smell can be solved with a thorough valet and the ciggy burn is small and I can cover it with a seat cover. 

I've been looking for a month now and I need a car for my new job in a few weeks.  Time and surplus cash are not on my side

*I could potentially find a slightly newer one in budget if I went private, but I feel that's risker as consumer rights laws goes out the window then

First thoughts are that this is not a car I would be tempted by given the points mentioned by the OP.

The OP does not say what type of car this is, or the price paid respective to age / mileage / condition.  It may be a rare choice of car, or may be purchased at a fantastically attractive price. That could change the temptation factor.

Given that the OP has been looking for a month, we can assume they have been selective, though maybe so much they reached the point of desperation "Time... not on my side)?

Regardless, the OP has some doubts about the car after paying the deposit.  I will provide some "devil's advocate" comments about the observations the OP has made:

1. 2013 car, average mileage, so 8 yo, circa 100k miles (~12k/year) or more.  
2. Removing the cigarette smell is not easy.  There was a recent thread on this.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6269502/getting-cigarette-smell-out-of-a-car/p1
3. Cigarette burn contradicts with my definition of "pretty good condition" and does not indicate a particularly loved vehicle.
4. EML light - could be a glow plug, could be anything else that simply exhibits as the glow plug.  The OP even acknowledges "glow plug... if that's all there is to it".
5. Is this truly a one-owner car (making OP the second owner)?  OR is it "one previous owner" (making OP the third owner)?  The OP states 1 owner on the V5, but has the OP actually seen this document?
6. As the OP suggests, it makes little sense that one owner would skip the first two services when the car is new, conveniently "lose" the service book and receipts, but thereafter diligently have the car serviced annually / every 10k miles.  It could be appropriate to give the Dealer the benefit of the doubt.
7. An alternative possibility with the missing first services was a change of owner (see point 5) and the first owner could have done any mileage in the car without there being any external record at DVLA etc.  Then the second owner taking a diligent approach to servicing (though still not a "careful" owner given the ciggy burn).
8. The OP correctly notes that the warranty on an 8 yo 100 k mile car is of limited value.  Even more so given these warranties exclude pre-existing faults, and factors around the EML are pre-existing and known to the OP.
9. IMO, any Dealer with pride in the product would sort out the burn before presenting the car for sale.  And do the best to clean any smell.  And sort the EML issues (unless they can't be sorted easily).
10. The OP is going to get their mechanic to check the car over after purchase.  That is too late really - either get the car inspected before purchase (too late) or ask the trusted mechanic to source a car.  I assume the trusted mechanic will charge for this service?

Buying from a Dealer, there are more consumer rights than a private purchase, but those rights are tempered against the age, condition and known state of the vehicle at the time of purchase.  This Dealer could quite easily shy away from anything relating to EML as evident at the time of purchase.

The OP does not say how big a deposit they put down, but if this was me I'd be walking away and sacrificing the deposit (against the saving made by not paying my mechanic to check the car after purchase) and looking for something else.  There are enough 8 yo 100 k mile cars available not to have to chose one that:

• incomplete first two-year service history meaning potential mileage discrepancy
• has not been looked after (ciggy burn) and smell
• EML
• Dealer that does not care and simply presents the car "as is"

akira181

@AdrianC I'll say snide.  All I've said was it was in good condition for a 13 plate. i.e. it's 8 years old but not a scratched up rust bucket blowing smoke.  Somehow you've taken that to mean I expect it to be new and free from fault/maintenance and replied as such.  I'm not chasing some fancy prestige car and purposely buying old to make it in my price range.  I'm not considering an 8 year old Seat Ibiza Estate with average mileage for the fun of being concerned about reliability.  I need something soon and in budget so I can commute to work for the next few years until I can afford something newer.  After a month of looking, this is the best condition one that I have found.

Perhaps brake lines were a poor example of what I'm asking; basic maintenance is expected and I can live with.  What I'm concerned about is if my mechanic finds something that needs major repair or is unsafe; I would say the car is not as described and unfit for purpose as it's advertised as an inspected and roadworthy vehicle.  Marketing fluff or not, it can't be a outright lie.  Would consumer law likely be on my side in this case?

If I can get 2 years outta this car without expensive repairs, I'll be more than happy with it.  A single small fag burn on the back seat I couldn't care less about.  The conditions on the deposit are they fix the glow plug to clear the warning light on the dash and get rid of the smoke smell.  I know people that have bought ex smokers cars that were cleaned and they never had issues with it coming back, it's the main reason why I'm not overly concerned about it if they valet it as good as they say they will.

[Deleted User]

Any second hand cars for sale with lights on walk away from. Will always be trouble and it's a sign why the previous owner got rid. That and along with towing eye caps missing.

AdrianC

akira181 said:

All I've said was it was in good condition for a 13 plate. i.e. it's 8 years old but not a scratched up rust bucket blowing smoke.

Which is exactly what you have a legal right to expect.

What I'm concerned about is if my mechanic finds something that needs major repair or is unsafe; I would say the car is not as described and unfit for purpose as it's advertised as an inspected and roadworthy vehicle.

Which is exactly what you have a legal right to expect.

Their marketing fluff is irrelevant.

Would consumer law likely be on my side in this case?

Yes.

But... If the vendor claims something falls within reasonable expectations for a car of that age, price, apparent condition, then how do you enforce it?

Ultimately, you reject the car and launch a small claim for the value.