HERMES DELIVERY - BUYER SAYS NOT RECEIVED

prowla

soolin said:

Protect your account first , you will win any INR claim with proof of delivery.

After that, and only after that start helping the buyer by asking Hermes for more information .

And what is the proof of delivery?

If you are paying a courier company for confirmed delivery, then you are being ripped off, as they are not taking proof of delivery.

Now, I've had some where the courier has taken a photo, which seems to me is a viable substitute for a signature.

However, I've sometimes gone out of my front door and found something just lying there.

There are two reasons why just ditching something outside the property is not a proof of delivery to the addressee:

1. Anybody passing in the street could just grab it and leg it.
2. There is nothing to say that the courier really did deliver it.

A "proof of delivery" with no proof is not proof at all.

soolin

prowla said:

soolin said:

Protect your account first , you will win any INR claim with proof of delivery.

After that, and only after that start helping the buyer by asking Hermes for more information .

And what is the proof of delivery?

If you are paying a courier company for confirmed delivery, then you are being ripped off, as they are not taking proof of delivery.

Now, I've had some where the courier has taken a photo, which seems to me is a viable substitute for a signature.

However, I've sometimes gone out of my front door and found something just lying there.

There are two reasons why just ditching something outside the property is not a proof of delivery to the addressee:

1. Anybody passing in the street could just grab it and leg it.
2. There is nothing to say that the courier really did deliver it.

A "proof of delivery" with no proof is not proof at all.

The proof of delivery is in the 1st post, it tracked to delivery- so seller will win the INR and needs to get the case closed immediately to protect their account. The semantics of what constitutes proof is covered over and over again on here . with couriers no longer taking signatures at all, and there being no requirement anywhere for the item to be delivered to a named person- just an address there is nothing at all that anyone can do to be 100% sure that the right person gets the item physically placed in their hands. 

This is an ebay question and they require online tracking to the address given , and seller has that. So my advice stands, get the case closed ASAP and then assist the buyer if they still claim they do not have the item. 

The alternative is that a seller just rolls over every time someone says they don't have an item and refunds them, and then of course they cannot claim from courier or RM as they will say item was delivered. I cannot see any business just refunding immediately as soon as someone says they don't have an item. I am always surprised how many of my previous INR complaints suddenly found the package once I reminded them it was tracked to delivery- usually it was taken in by someone else, or gathered up by accident by a partner or other occupant in the house. If it has gone astray then buyer needs to stay in touch as they will need to liaise with the seller to provide adequate information to courier to do a more thorough investigation.

forgotmyname

Had several deliveries from Hermes over the last few days.  1 order from the same company arrived in 3 parcels over
3 separate days.  The first day I was expecting a largish parcel as one item was fairly long

The driver placed 2 boxes down as I thought that looks slightly small for the item he took the 2nd one away and walked
the opposite direction to his van,  I thought it was probably for a neighbour. 

Did get me wondering about the possibility of a driver taking a photo of a package at a different address or saying the
other parcel is for another customer.

Did come home one day to find the dustbin against the front door and a parcel behind it. Not a cheap item and not
exactly hidden either.

prowla

soolin said:

prowla said:

soolin said:

Protect your account first , you will win any INR claim with proof of delivery.

After that, and only after that start helping the buyer by asking Hermes for more information .

And what is the proof of delivery?

If you are paying a courier company for confirmed delivery, then you are being ripped off, as they are not taking proof of delivery.

Now, I've had some where the courier has taken a photo, which seems to me is a viable substitute for a signature.

However, I've sometimes gone out of my front door and found something just lying there.

There are two reasons why just ditching something outside the property is not a proof of delivery to the addressee:

1. Anybody passing in the street could just grab it and leg it.
2. There is nothing to say that the courier really did deliver it.

A "proof of delivery" with no proof is not proof at all.

The proof of delivery is in the 1st post, it tracked to delivery- so seller will win the INR and needs to get the case closed immediately to protect their account. The semantics of what constitutes proof is covered over and over again on here . with couriers no longer taking signatures at all, and there being no requirement anywhere for the item to be delivered to a named person- just an address there is nothing at all that anyone can do to be 100% sure that the right person gets the item physically placed in their hands. 

This is an ebay question and they require online tracking to the address given , and seller has that. So my advice stands, get the case closed ASAP and then assist the buyer if they still claim they do not have the item. 

The alternative is that a seller just rolls over every time someone says they don't have an item and refunds them, and then of course they cannot claim from courier or RM as they will say item was delivered. I cannot see any business just refunding immediately as soon as someone says they don't have an item. I am always surprised how many of my previous INR complaints suddenly found the package once I reminded them it was tracked to delivery- usually it was taken in by someone else, or gathered up by accident by a partner or other occupant in the house. If it has gone astray then buyer needs to stay in touch as they will need to liaise with the seller to provide adequate information to courier to do a more thorough investigation.

Wikipedia defines POD as (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_delivery):

Proof of delivery (POD) is a method to establish the fact that a recipient received contents sent by a sender.

Which seems a reasonable definition; note that is says it is to "establish the fact" that the recipient received them.

If there is no evidence of that fact (eg. the courier never interacted with the recipient and just left it outside) , then there is no proof.

The courier companies T&Cs reflect this...

From Hermes (https://www.hermesworld.com/en/our-services/distribution/parcel-delivery/services/proof-of-delivery.html)

Proof of Delivery

Delivering peace of mind to your customers

Hermes’ flexible delivery service means your customers don’t have to be home to receive their parcels.

But what if they don’t want them delivered to a safe place?

We offer a choice of two Proof of Delivery options designed to provide you and your customers with that extra peace of mind.

Key features of Proof of Devliery:

Neighbour We will capture a delivery signature from someone at either the original delivery address or a neighbour

Household Alternatively we will capture a signature only from someone at the original delivery address

Signature Visibility You will have visibility of signatures obtained by the courier via Hermes Corporate Web Tracking. *excludes paper manifests

Service Availability Our Proof Of Delivery options can be combined with Next Day, Standard or Sunday Delivery Services

Affordable We offer absolute peace of mind for high value goods, without the high value price tag

From UPS (https://www.ups.com/gb/en/shipping/services/value-added/proof-of-delivery.page):

Description

Proof of Delivery (P.O.D.) includes the time of delivery, full delivery address, and the name and signature of the person who accepted your shipment.

Now, there is UK advice for if an item is not received...

From Which (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/my-delivery-or-online-order-hasn-t-arrived-what-can-i-do-aLlda9w2pukM) regarding buying from a retailer:

Missing or late delivery? Complain to the retailer 

You should complain to the retailer as it is responsible for undelivered goods, not the courier.

This is because your contract is with the retailer, who you bought the goods from.

Legally, your contract is with the retailer and the Consumer Rights Act makes the retailer responsible for the good condition and safe delivery of your order.  

Here are six must-know consumer rights if your delivery hasn’t gone to plan:

1. If your order is late, missing or has turned up damaged we recommend that you complain to the retailer - even if you think it’s down to a poor service from the courier, because your contract is with the retailer.
2. If you paid extra for special delivery and your order arrived later than agreed you can claim back the extra delivery cost as the service wasn’t delivered.
3. Be aware if you give permission for your delivery to be left in a specified safe place or received by a nominated neighbour and something goes wrong, you will still be considered to have received the delivery.  Think very carefully about those options when you’re making a purchase.
4. If your order arrives damaged or faulty, you have a right to refuse it and get a refund, repair or replacement. Understand your next steps if your goods arrive damaged in the post.
5. Your delivery must be made without undue delay and within 30 days from the point of purchase unless you and the retailer agree otherwise, this is stipulated by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
6. You can also cancel an order for most items ‘bought at a distance’ - for example, online, over the phone or a mail order catalogue.

From Consumer Council (https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/consumers/rights-and-advice/postal-services/parcels/parcel-delivery-rights)

My parcel hasn't arrived

What the law says?

What can I do?

• The seller is responsible for goods up until they are delivered. This means, that in the event of non-delivery you must contact the seller rather than the delivery company.
• Goods ordered online must be delivered within the time frame agreed with the seller. If no time frame is agreed, the seller has to deliver ‘without undue delay’ and at the very latest no more than 30 days from the date of purchase.
• If you paid for delivery and requested the item be delivered by a certain date or time (eg by Christmas or next-day delivery) and the delivery arrives late, this is a breach of contract. You have the right to cancel your order and get a full refund.
• You are entitled to cancel your order up to 14 days after the delivery of goods and receive a full refund however some exceptions do apply. The refund can includes the full cost of the item plus standard postage, regardless of the delivery option chosen.
• For further information on your online shopping rights click here. 
• Before you order look at the seller’s terms and conditions in relation to delivery. Do they state they can leave the item in an alternative location i.e on the doorstep, with a neighbour etc?
• If not you can argue that the item has not been delivered and the seller has not fulfilled their terms.
• Check with your neighbours and around your property in case the item has already been delivered.
• Goods should be delivered within 30 days unless an alternative time period has been agreed. If this has not occurred: - Contact the seller. - Remind them of their obligations to get the items delivered to you. - Insist that they take action to resolve.
  

As far as ebay goes (and they are not the retailer, not the sender, and not the buyer)...

From ebay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/helping-buyers-items-not-received?id=4116):

Help a buyer with an item they didn't receive

If a buyer doesn't receive their item, they're entitled to a refund unless you can provide tracking information showing that it was delivered.

Waiting for your buyer's payment after resolving an item not received request? See our page on pending payments

Are you a buyer and haven't received the item you bought? Read our article on what to do if you haven't received your item

If your buyer hasn't received their item and the estimated delivery date has passed, they'll let you know there's an issue by opening an “Item not received” request.

So, ebay don't define what precisely their definition of "showing that it was delivered" means. However, ebay are not a UK company and their T&Cs (especially when put as vaguely as above) do not trump the UK laws, as outlined in the Which and Consume Council links.

Putting the above together, if the courier companies are not taking signatures and therefore have no proof that the item was delivered to the intended recipient, then they do not have a proof that it was received, and so the seller is at fault.

Now, in the real world, the general status is that most people are playing fair and 99.99% of transactions all complete satisfactorily.

However, if sellers then proclaim that their interpretation is actually the law and it's not their fault if items go missing, then they are wrong; it is their job to make sure the item is delivered to the buyer and any failure to do so is the responsibility of the seller.

So, the idea that the buyer is the loser they don't receive an item they've bought is fanciful poppycock.

24Tweezers

This morning I contacted ebay and very politely asked for an update. 
The upshot being they have now closed the case 'without refunding the buyer'.  My funds are no longer on hold and I'm happy!
Thank you everyone for your input over the past three weeks or more.

soolin

prowla. quote snipped

thats all very nice for Wiki but not of use to anyone using virtually any online sales platform. I sell across ebay, Etsy, Facebook (using paypal) and a dozen or more specialist groups using mainly paypal, I used to sell on Amazon. All of those use common online tracking to the address provided as ‘delivery’. 

In this case, and I note seller has already won the case, buyer could of course take seller to small claims but I’m not sure whether a wiki definition of delivered will be taken as more or less useful than the terms and conditions that managed payments or paypal provide . 

I can’t think of any delivery service that requires total proof that person accepting the parcel is the person who shows on the address, even special delivery via RM doesn’t ask for proof of ID before they leave a parcel, I’d be completely lost if they did as I still take parcels in for my sons and one of their wives if they are not working from home. If I had no way at all of proving delivery than I , and I am sure many others, would stop any non face to face sales. 

As I have said several times on the thread, sellers should always protect their accounts first, then they can assist the buyer.although the buyer in this instance, like many others, appear to have given up their claim . I’m sure many of us, if we had a parcel missing and knew we were going to lose an ebay claim, would be in regular touch with the seller asking for help and more assistance with locating what happened to their parcel. 

Spoonie_Turtle

soolin said:

prowla. quote snipped

thats all very nice for Wiki but not of use to anyone using virtually any online sales platform. I sell across ebay, Etsy, Facebook (using paypal) and a dozen or more specialist groups using mainly paypal, I used to sell on Amazon. All of those use common online tracking to the address provided as ‘delivery’. 

I can’t think of any delivery service that requires total proof that person accepting the parcel is the person who shows on the address, even special delivery via RM doesn’t ask for proof of ID before they leave a parcel,

Exactly.  If people trade via a certain company, they accept their terms.  If they call on a company for their help, they do so subject to that company's terms.  The person can't start arguing about terms after they've already used the company (whether that's the delivery company, the selling platform, or the payment platform).  If a person has a problem with a company's terms, they should not use them, simple.  If you prowla are committed to this crusade then you can of course choose to hand-deliver anything you may sell, although you should be aware of the consequences of doing so will no doubt include losing your seller protection if you have used eBay and/or PayPal and any other platform requiring proof of delivery.

moonpenny

A little bit off topic but what happens if goods are stolen from doorstep after being delivered?

It worries me that on a couple of occasions I have returned home to find a parcel left on my front doorstep. 
My front door is up a couple of steps and the parcels have been left on the top step in full veiw of the road and passers by.

Who would be responsible in such a situation?

olgadapolga

moonpenny said:

A little bit off topic but what happens if goods are stolen from doorstep after being delivered?

It worries me that on a couple of occasions I have returned home to find a parcel left on my front doorstep. 
My front door is up a couple of steps and the parcels have been left on the top step in full veiw of the road and passers by.

Who would be responsible in such a situation?

The courier. Some of my buyers have claimed exactly this but the courier paid out in the end.

moonpenny

I think that (where possible) the couriers should be banned from leaving parcels In full view at the front of the house if they can get to the back.
It would only take a couple more minutes to do that though I understand not everyone has access.