end of tenancy help! (AST to SPT)

MaryNB

You shouldn't give notice until you exchange on a property. With a 2 month notice period (which I presume will have to line up with 2 rental periods) you'll have a significant overlap where you'll be paying both rent and mortgage. With an SPT the notice is one rental period.

It is absolutely better to go with a SPT. 

Worst case scenario, he's a total moron and issues an s21 notice which is currently 4 months (probably 2 months from October) on paying tenants. You don't find a property by then. You stay on beyond the s21 and continue paying your rent. He applies to the court after the s21 notice expires. Gets a court date in say mid to late 2022. Given current backlogs it will take many months, and an s21 is low priority compared to an S8 issued due to rent arrears or anti-social behaviour. By then you've completed on your house, have moved out and he can't do anything. He'll be fuming but you don't need a reference from him. He can't keep your deposit in retaliation either (obviously except for any repairs) as long as you've been paying rent. If he is difficult about returning it request it directly from the deposit scheme.

Don't sign anything.

olivia9988

Update 

LL 'wants to serve notice next week'. Our tenancy does not end for one month, so he will be serving us a S21 on our current AST. Will the S21 be void once it moves to a periodic tenancy or will it remain valid?  (In hindsight, we should've let them know at the last minute) 
We shall be thoroughly checking the notice for errors etc..

The reasons he gave was that he doesn't want an empty flat in the quieter winter months. He offered us a 6 month break clause (we declined) but either way he may be left with an empty flat around the same time anyway....

The agents have offered to pass my number on but i'm not sure what else we can say.

MaryNB

I'm sorry you have such a horrible and moronic landlord.

It will still be valid when your tenancy becomes rolling.

Has he given you an gas safety cert, How to Rent guide, and energy performance cert, and protected your deposit?
Have a look online for s21 checklists to see everything he needs to do before he can issue a valid s21.
If you spot an error and you are sure it had invalidated the S21, say nothing. Let him figure it out himself. 

Like I said before, an S21 is not an eviction notice, it is a notice seeking possession. All is does is allow the landlord to apply to the court for possession when the notice expires. You still have a legal right to remain in the property, you still have to pay rent, and the landlord is still required to carry out repairs. Just make sure you move out before he goes to court, he may try to charge you for any eviction costs but I think in order to do so it needs to be in the tenancy agreement (I think). That won't be for ages though. At the best of times it takes months to get a court date, there's a massive backlog due to covid so you will have plenty of time after the end of the s21.

olivia9988

Thank you!

They gave us all the required docs at the start of the tenancy last year. Is this valid for the S21 or will he need to send out new ones?

Yes, we'll stay as long as we need to providing it's before he goes to court. Does LL have to notify us when he receives a court date?

saajan_12

olivia9988 said:

Update 

LL 'wants to serve notice next week'. Our tenancy does not end for one month, so he will be serving us a S21 on our current AST. Will the S21 be void once it moves to a periodic tenancy or will it remain valid?  (In hindsight, we should've let them know at the last minute) - the notice would still be valid. But remember its 4 months, plus waiting for a court date, plus reserving if there were errors.. 
We shall be thoroughly checking the notice for errors etc..

The reasons he gave was that he doesn't want an empty flat in the quieter winter months. He offered us a 6 month break clause (we declined) but either way he may be left with an empty flat around the same time anyway.... - exactly, its the same thing so you have to think who's telling you they want a new contract and what their actual motivation might be

The agents have offered to pass my number on but i'm not sure what else we can say.

It could all be bluffing, as serving notice is free, telling you they'll serve notice is even more free. Doesn't mean they'll necessarily follow through to court, but rather hoping you'll give in on the negotiation. 


As you say, a 6 month break clause also pushes this to a winter changeover, so there's no benefit there. The real motivation might be the agent wanting fees from the LL for the new agreement paperwork, or the LL being illogically scared that a rolling tenancy without a current fixed term is not 'proper'. 

Regardless now there's no point in forcing the LL conversation and straining the relationship. You can try calmly stating its in everyone's interest to keep it flexible, as a 6 month break will have the same changeover time - they might listen to reason, but if not then you haven't made anything worse and they'll soon find out they can't get what they think they want. 

MaryNB

I'm not sure. For that I would refer you to shelter England or citizens advice. And accelerated possession order pre covid was about 8 weeks but for over a year there were no evictions so there's going to be a massive backlog and subsequently massive delays. 
The fee for a possession order I think is up to £355 which could apply as soon as he applies to the court. Check your tenancy agreement to check if it covers this and check with Shelter or Citizens advice. 

Bear in mind with his proposed fixed term you can only hand notice in in 4 after he renews the tenancy. If you don't complete on the property by then you've missed your window you'll still be liable for rent up to the 12 month mark so you need to. You could end up paying a lot more than £355. 

[Deleted User]

He gives notice next week so that takes him to the beginning of October. He then waits for a court date to get a possession order. Could well result in him having an empty property in winter. Slow clap Mr Landlord. 

There’s always the chance the letting agency is BSing you and the landlord doesn’t care either way. You’d need to be a complete tit to go to the effort of court to get rid of a tenant, a known entity that pays the rent on him and hadn’t trashed the place just because the tenant wants a periodic rather than fixed term tenancy. 

newsgroupmonkey_

Tbf, this sounds like the kind of landlord that will have someone lined up in 4 months to the day.

MaryNB said:

 And accelerated possession order pre covid was about 8 weeks but for over a year there were no evictions so there's going to be a massive backlog and subsequently massive delays.

I would have thought accelerated possession orders were only for Section 8s anyway surely?

I mean, why should you be able to accelerate possession just because you want your property back? What makes you better than the thousands of other cases awaiting judgement? Especially when the tenant is paying the rent and not trashing the place.

MaryNB

newsgroupmonkey_ said:

Tbf, this sounds like the kind of landlord that will have someone lined up in 4 months to the day.

MaryNB said:

 And accelerated possession order pre covid was about 8 weeks but for over a year there were no evictions so there's going to be a massive backlog and subsequently massive delays.

I would have thought accelerated possession orders were only for Section 8s anyway surely?

I mean, why should you be able to accelerate possession just because you want your property back? What makes you better than the thousands of other cases awaiting judgement? Especially when the tenant is paying the rent and not trashing the place.

He can line someone up but makes no difference to the OP. If he's stupid enough to give new tenants as AST before OP has vacated he'll be a up a creek without a paddle....

https://www.gov.uk/evicting-tenants/accelerated-possession-orders - this refers to S21 notices
I believe in general, S21s are low priority compared to S8 because the latter is often due to rent arrears or antisocial behaviour. 

olivia9988 said:

Thank you!

They gave us all the required docs at the start of the tenancy last year. Is this valid for the S21 or will he need to send out new ones?

Yes, we'll stay as long as we need to providing it's before he goes to court. Does LL have to notify us when he receives a court date?

The How to Rent and EPC will still be valid. I'm almost sure the Gas Safety Cert needs to have been done within the last 12 months (by law he has to have a check done very 12 months) but you'll need to verify that. 
It is likely the deposit will still be protected when it becomes an SPT. Although depending on the scheme he may have to actively reprotect it. After the SPT starts you can contact the relevant scheme to check if it is still protected. 

He gives notice next week so that takes him to the beginning of October. He then waits for a court date to get a possession order. Could well result in him having an empty property in winter. Slow clap Mr Landlord. 

There’s always the chance the letting agency is BSing you and the landlord doesn’t care either way. You’d need to be a complete tit to go to the effort of court to get rid of a tenant, a known entity that pays the rent on him and hadn’t trashed the place just because the tenant wants a periodic rather than fixed term tenancy. 

I'm sure you just miscounted the months but just to avoid confusion, it takes it him up to the start of November.