Illegal Sublet

Jumblebumble

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

[Deleted User]

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

You need to be more specific. Housing law differs depending on which country in the UK the rental property is located. 

Generally speaking though you have no relationship with the sub tenants. When the tenant’s tenancy ends the sub-tenants tenancy ends too since it appears there was never ever any permission to sublet the property in the first place. 

The sub tenants then become trespassers when the tenant’s tenancy ends and can be evicted quite easily. 

RAS

And generally speaking, if you accept any rental payment from the occupants, you create a new tenancy after which it will months, anything up to a couple of years to remove them.

I assume you'll not be returning the deposit to the tenant until you have vacant possession? You may want to remind them of this?

Robbo66

The one thing they are not are squatters, yes your tenant broke his tenancy and sublet but the family have a landlord and have been paying rent. You will need to go to court for possession. Give Landlord action a call and they will guide you through the process. For a fee they will do the whole eviction for you, cheaper than using a solicitor, however you will still need to pay the court fees

MaryNB

Lover_of_Lycra said:

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

You need to be more specific. Housing law differs depending on which country in the UK the rental property is located. 

Generally speaking though you have no relationship with the sub tenants. When the tenant’s tenancy ends the sub-tenants tenancy ends too since it appears there was never ever any permission to sublet the property in the first place. 

The sub tenants then become trespassers when the tenant’s tenancy ends and can be evicted quite easily. 

Don't think it's quite that simple. It can depend on what circumstances the main tenancy ended. A repossession order ends both the main and sub-tenancy but an agreed surrender of the main tenancy may not end the sub-tenancy. Not sure what happens if the main tenant has issued a notice to quit

From citizens advice

Generally, when a mesne tenancy ends, the subtenancy also ends and the head landlord is entitled to get the accommodation back with no-one living it. There are however, some exceptions to this. The main exceptions are:

• if the head landlord agrees to the subtenancy in some way, or
• where the mesne tenancy ends with the head landlord's agreement. This is called surrender.

.......

Surrender is an agreement between a landlord and a tenant that the tenancy is given up. When a tenancy is surrendered, the landlord takes back the property subject to any rights and tenancies or licences created by the outgoing tenant.

This means that if your landlord surrenders their tenancy, you would become the direct tenant of the head landlord. This would be the case even if the subletting was unlawful. In these circumstances, your tenancy would continue on the same terms as your existing tenancy agreement.

Robbo66 said:

The one thing they are not are squatters, yes your tenant broke his tenancy and sublet but the family have a landlord and have been paying rent. You will need to go to court for possession. Give Landlord action a call and they will guide you through the process. For a fee they will do the whole eviction for you, cheaper than using a solicitor, however you will still need to pay the court fees

Contacting landlord action will be the best way forward. The landlord doesn't want to risk illegally evicting them. It is a criminal offence.

[Deleted User]

MaryNB said:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

You need to be more specific. Housing law differs depending on which country in the UK the rental property is located. 

Generally speaking though you have no relationship with the sub tenants. When the tenant’s tenancy ends the sub-tenants tenancy ends too since it appears there was never ever any permission to sublet the property in the first place. 

The sub tenants then become trespassers when the tenant’s tenancy ends and can be evicted quite easily. 

Don't think it's quite that simple. It can depend on what circumstances the main tenancy ended. A repossession order ends both the main and sub-tenancy but an agreed surrender of the main tenancy may not end the sub-tenancy. Not sure what happens if the main tenant has issued a notice to quit

From citizens advice

Generally, when a mesne tenancy ends, the subtenancy also ends and the head landlord is entitled to get the accommodation back with no-one living it. There are however, some exceptions to this. The main exceptions are:

• if the head landlord agrees to the subtenancy in some way, or
• where the mesne tenancy ends with the head landlord's agreement. This is called surrender.

.......

Surrender is an agreement between a landlord and a tenant that the tenancy is given up. When a tenancy is surrendered, the landlord takes back the property subject to any rights and tenancies or licences created by the outgoing tenant.

This means that if your landlord surrenders their tenancy, you would become the direct tenant of the head landlord. This would be the case even if the subletting was unlawful. In these circumstances, your tenancy would continue on the same terms as your existing tenancy agreement.

Robbo66 said:

The one thing they are not are squatters, yes your tenant broke his tenancy and sublet but the family have a landlord and have been paying rent. You will need to go to court for possession. Give Landlord action a call and they will guide you through the process. For a fee they will do the whole eviction for you, cheaper than using a solicitor, however you will still need to pay the court fees

Contacting landlord action will be the best way forward. The landlord doesn't want to risk illegally evicting them. It is a criminal offence.

The tenancy is ending 7th July because the tenant served notice. 

Jumblebumble

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

Thanks all 
Some observations
The property is in London
The landlord will under no circumstances accept any further rent from anyone
The landlord thinks citizens advice may be talking nonsense in suggesting that if a tenant illegally sublets a £1000 a month flat for £10 per month and then terminates the tenancy that this means that the sub tenant can simply carry on under  the same terms as this would be ridiculous
It also does not address how the real landlord is supposed to comply with the rules on making sure the sub tenants are not illegally in the country.  I suspect the mortgage company and the insurance company would not be amused
It also does not address the subject of deposits and the DPS
The landlord believes that Lycra is correct and that the sub tenants are trespassers and that as per the CAB page no possession order is needed. 
They hope the sub tenants will be gone but will address the situation on July 8th

user1977

Jumblebumble said:

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

The landlord believes that Lycra is correct and that the sub tenants are trespassers and that as per the CAB page no possession order is needed. 

They'd still need a warrant to evict them though (not sure if that's been misunderstood).

MaryNB

Jumblebumble said:

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

Thanks all 
Some observations
The property is in London
The landlord will under no circumstances accept any further rent from anyone
The landlord thinks citizens advice may be talking nonsense in suggesting that if a tenant illegally sublets a £1000 a month flat for £10 per month and then terminates the tenancy that this means that the sub tenant can simply carry on under  the same terms as this would be ridiculous
It also does not address how the real landlord is supposed to comply with the rules on making sure the sub tenants are not illegally in the country.  I suspect the mortgage company and the insurance company would not be amused
It also does not address the subject of deposits and the DPS
The landlord believes that Lycra is correct and that the sub tenants are trespassers and that as per the CAB page no possession order is needed. 
They hope the sub tenants will be gone but will address the situation on July 8th

I'll repeat Robbo66's advice. The landlord should contact landlord action or another landlord advocacy group like NRLA asap so they can make sure everything is done by the book. On one line you disregard what citizens advice has told the landlord, and then further down refer to the their webpage to back up your understanding. The landlord should avoid any ambiguity. If it is seen as an illegal eviction the landlord could be in a lot of trouble as it's a criminal office. 

Jumblebumble

The only issue is that Landlord action want £2500 to do something that may well not be necessary and the landlord is  not at all convinced any advice from them  will be impartial.
The landlord will take the view the people occupying are trespassers and will ask them to leave and will then involve the Police if to prevent a breach of the peace if they don't agree to leave.

You are correct about my misunderstanding  CAB advice which is badly written as the bit regarding the subtenant becoming a direct tenant looks to only apply  if the Head Landlord agreed to a sublet which does not apply here.

The CAB is clear 
If your landlord's tenancy ends and none of the circumstances explained above apply to you, the head landlord can evict you quite easily. In these circumstances you're regarded as a trespasser and the head landlord doesn't need a possession order to evict you, but they can get one if they choose.

[Deleted User]

user1977 said:

Jumblebumble said:

Jumblebumble said:

Can anyone kindly advise on the following situation (UK)
A landlord has let a flat to a tenant who was on a rollover
The tenant is from overseas and has gone back home
They have given notice that expires 7 July
Everything was above board deposit protected etc
The landlord went to do an inspection last week and found a young family living there who upon questioning were under the impression that the Landlord was the tenant.
They knew they were suppose to vacate on 7 July but asked if they could stay for another 3 months
The landlord who has read far too many times people on here  encouraging tenants not to stick to the agreements they have made  has told them no chance 
The landlord wishes to refurbish the flat by removing the kitchen on July 8th

Can any one advise what might happen if the "squatters" are still there on July 8th and the Landlord wishes them to be out ?

The landlord believes that Lycra is correct and that the sub tenants are trespassers and that as per the CAB page no possession order is needed. 

They'd still need a warrant to evict them though (not sure if that's been misunderstood).

In the circumstances described (tenant served notice to end tenancy 7th July and landlord did not give permission to sub let) a possession order is not required as the sub-tenants will be trespassers come 8th July.