Chimney breast partly removed - options?

IronMan22

Hi

I’ve seen various posts but getting more confused and unsure the more I read.

We’re buying a house, and our survey has come back mentioning a number of issues, one of which is building control sign offs for the roof replacement (half has been replaced at some point) and for the chimney breast removal. The same chimney breast has been removed below the loft but it’s still in the loft and the stack and our survey isn’t able to say what’s supporting it.

The sellers are saying they don’t have them, the work was done before they even purchased it (approx 8 years ago we think) but haven’t mentioned whether they were aware from their survey when they purchased etc.

But for us we obviously don’t want inherit a problem when we come to sell and very practically we need to be sure it’s safe and done well in the meantime.

We’re wanting to understand our options and what we need to think about. (It’s slightly complicated that the sellers would like to complete by the end of the month, which seems a rush as this isn’t the only outstanding issue.) They have suggested just an indemnity but it doesn’t seem enough given there’s no assurance what we’re buying even has something holding it up, let alone if it is appropriate.

- We can ask them to contact the local authority, check if it has a certificate and if not, ask for what I think is regularisation? But that would essentially just check it was done properly, but gives us reassurance and a certificate?

- We can ask them to have a structural engineer look at it, how can advise if it’s appropriate, ok etc? And if they had this, an indemnity would seem ok. 

- That given there’s other work needed, including on the roof and the chimney breast brick work, that we might suggest the cost of it all being removed is looked at and then the problem is fixed? It is on a party wall though which I understand might be an issue (the breast, but not the actual stack, weirdly)

We’re first time buyers so the stamp duty isn’t an issue for us, we wouldn’t want to impact the sellers with their next purchase if we can help it but we’re really concerned by this and what it might mean for us immediately and in the future. 

Wkmg

If it hasn’t caused a problem in at least 8 years it probably won’t suddenly cause a problem now. 

FreeBear

IronMan22 said: - We can ask them to have a structural engineer look at it, how can advise if it’s appropriate, ok etc?

To be worthwhile a structural engineer would need to do an invasive inspection. Lifting floorboards, knocking holes in plaster, etc. Only then would he be able to see what is supporting the chimney breast. If you went for regularisation, the same invasive inspections would have to be done.

An indemnity policy would only cover costs if the council were to take enforcement action. It wouldn't cover substandard or non-compliant work.

purplebutterfly

The house we are buying has a missing chimney in the kitchen but it is still there in the loft and bedroom above. There is no record of any work being done let alone building regs certification. 

To do a proper inspection will require floorboards lifting,  kitchen units being removed,  a lowered ceiling being taken out etc so the vendors - understandably - don't want to do that,  even if we pay for the survey.  

We've had to take a view that there has been no trouble with it for at least 30 years,  there are no cracks or bowing to any walls and everything appears stable.  It wasn't even flagged up on our vendor's survey when they bought the house.  

When we move in we will get it inspected and any remedial works done if it doesn't have the proper support in place. 

It's a bloody horrible position to be in and I completely sympathise with you.  We have taken the view that we can't bear to lose an otherwise amazing house and will just have to take it as it is.  

I know this doesn't help you but just wanted to let you know you are not the only person out there with a chimney breast problem! 

GDB2222

We had the two flank chimneys of our Edwardian house removed. It was not all that expensive, even. 

Jeepers_Creepers

IronMan22 said:

We’re buying a house, and our survey has come back mentioning a number of issues, one of which is building control sign offs for the roof replacement (half has been replaced at some point) and for the chimney breast removal. The same chimney breast has been removed below the loft but it’s still in the loft and the stack and our survey isn’t able to say what’s supporting it.

I, personally, wouldn't be worried at all at the lack of cert for the half-roof, provided the work was carried out properly - and half a new roof is better than none :sm:smile: 

I presume the survey didn't say the roof work wasn't actually ok? Cool - now't to worry about then.

The half-chimney is a little more tricky, as an unsupported breast and stack could be an issue.

 Chances are it won't be - it ain't fallen down yet - but possibly it will. Be a future 'technical' issue, I mean - it's extremely unlikely to actually fall down. For the stack, then, I think I'd just factor in a £k or so to have it either properly supported in the loft (if you want to keep the stack - does it add to the character?), or to have it fully removed if you preferred (less future exterior maintenance).

So possibly try and negotiate this sort of discount and sort it out after purchase, or else take it on the chin.

Section62

IronMan22 said:

...but it’s still in the loft and the stack and our survey isn’t able to say what’s supporting it.

That would be the main concern for me. If there was visible means of support but there was a lack of BR sign off that would be one thing, but if the surveyor wasn't able to establish what support (if any) there is then you have complete uncertainty.

Does the surveyor explain why they can't say what is supporting it?  I.e. that part of the loft is inaccessible, or junk is piled up around the chimney, or loft insulation.... or because they could see the chimney going down below ceiling level but can't see beyond that?

IronMan22 said:

They have suggested just an indemnity but it doesn’t seem enough given there’s no assurance what we’re buying even has something holding it up, let alone if it is appropriate.

An indemnity isn't really much use here, unless you've been able to get a structural engineer to confirm that the chimney is adequately supported.  Otherwise you will have the ongoing concern that one day the chimney will join you or a family member in one of the bedrooms.  Safety needs to come before paperwork.

IronMan22 said:

- We can ask them to have a structural engineer look at it, how can advise if it’s appropriate, ok etc? And if they had this, an indemnity would seem ok.

- That given there’s other work needed, including on the roof and the chimney breast brick work, that we might suggest the cost of it all being removed is looked at and then the problem is fixed? It is on a party wall though which I understand might be an issue (the breast, but not the actual stack, weirdly)

I think - subject to what the survey said about access - that a visit by a structural engineer would be a good idea, even if they cannot make invasive investigations at this time.

The main reason for that is the arrangement of not having the stack directly above the breast on the party wall is - as you say - a bit weird. It would help if you could share some photos of what it looks like externally (if not internally as well), but there are two possibilities here.  Firstly, it could be the stack is actually supported by the party wall but the surveyor didn't understand how the structure worked.  Secondly, the arrangement might mean the usual methods of retrofit structural support won't work, or would be hideously expensive. Getting an initial view from a structural engineer could allay your concerns, or give you an idea of what you are letting yourself in for.

Removal of the stack could be a good idea - subject to planning and aesthetic issues - provided it only serves your property.  What happens to the neighbour's chimney?  Does it do the same thing of following the party wall, but then separating away at loft level? Or is there a possibility their flue is included in the stack on your side?

Section62

Wkmg said:

If it hasn’t caused a problem in at least 8 years it probably won’t suddenly cause a problem now. 

If only that were true.  If it was, then things like this wouldn't happen -

Christchurch house wall collapse: Teenage passer-by "shaken up"  (Coincidentally on an 8 year old building)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-57253967


If the building existed in a perfect static world there would be some truth to the statement. The reality is buildings, especially the external parts, exist in a dynamic world where changes can (even over an extended period of time) cause collapse without warning.

An unsupported chimney could be absolutely fine for 8 years, until one day the wind blows strongly enough from just the right direction... or unusually heavy and prolonged rain makes the bricks in the stack that little bit heavier... or snow on the roof in addition to supporting the chimney makes roof structural members finally break.

If there is a serious structural issue, the fact the property owners could have been lucky for the last 8 years doesn't alter the probability of them being unlucky tomorrow.

IronMan22

Jeepers_Creepers said:

IronMan22 said:

We’re buying a house, and our survey has come back mentioning a number of issues, one of which is building control sign offs for the roof replacement (half has been replaced at some point) and for the chimney breast removal. The same chimney breast has been removed below the loft but it’s still in the loft and the stack and our survey isn’t able to say what’s supporting it.

I, personally, wouldn't be worried at all at the lack of cert for the half-roof, provided the work was carried out properly - and half a new roof is better than none :sm:smile: 

I presume the survey didn't say the roof work wasn't actually ok? Cool - now't to worry about then.

The half-chimney is a little more tricky, as an unsupported breast and stack could be an issue.

 Chances are it won't be - it ain't fallen down yet - but possibly it will. Be a future 'technical' issue, I mean - it's extremely unlikely to actually fall down. For the stack, then, I think I'd just factor in a £k or so to have it either properly supported in the loft (if you want to keep the stack - does it add to the character?), or to have it fully removed if you preferred (less future exterior maintenance).

So possibly try and negotiate this sort of discount and sort it out after purchase, or else take it on the chin.

Thanks for this. Yeah, the replaced half roof generally seems ok - bits need fixing but the other half needs doing more so can get stuff done then.

Think we will factor in price for works if they won’t confirm it’s done safely - which given they want to try and complete to avoid stamp duty, is better but not sure this can be done in a week! 

IronMan22

Section62 said:

IronMan22 said:

...but it’s still in the loft and the stack and our survey isn’t able to say what’s supporting it.

That would be the main concern for me. If there was visible means of support but there was a lack of BR sign off that would be one thing, but if the surveyor wasn't able to establish what support (if any) there is then you have complete uncertainty.

Does the surveyor explain why they can't say what is supporting it?  I.e. that part of the loft is inaccessible, or junk is piled up around the chimney, or loft insulation.... or because they could see the chimney going down below ceiling level but can't see beyond that?

So he couldn’t see it physically as I understand - that there was items in the loft space that stopped him seeing the bottom where it would join the loft space floor/insulation. It looks like from the photos there are a number of cardboard boxes in the way. 

Section62 said:

IronMan22 said:

- We can ask them to have a structural engineer look at it, how can advise if it’s appropriate, ok etc? And if they had this, an indemnity would seem ok.

- That given there’s other work needed, including on the roof and the chimney breast brick work, that we might suggest the cost of it all being removed is looked at and then the problem is fixed? It is on a party wall though which I understand might be an issue (the breast, but not the actual stack, weirdly)

I think - subject to what the survey said about access - that a visit by a structural engineer would be a good idea, even if they cannot make invasive investigations at this time.

The main reason for that is the arrangement of not having the stack directly above the breast on the party wall is - as you say - a bit weird. It would help if you could share some photos of what it looks like externally (if not internally as well), but there are two possibilities here.  Firstly, it could be the stack is actually supported by the party wall but the surveyor didn't understand how the structure worked.  Secondly, the arrangement might mean the usual methods of retrofit structural support won't work, or would be hideously expensive. Getting an initial view from a structural engineer could allay your concerns, or give you an idea of what you are letting yourself in for.

Removal of the stack could be a good idea - subject to planning and aesthetic issues - provided it only serves your property.  What happens to the neighbour's chimney?  Does it do the same thing of following the party wall, but then separating away at loft level? Or is there a possibility their flue is included in the stack on your side?

Sorry I think it might have made it sound strange and it might not be. I’ll dig the photos out and post in a minute.

It’s a terraced house with a couple of other properties either side. The property has two chimneys. On the left hand side we have a chimney stack that’s in the centre of the roof, that’s half on our property and half on the neighbours. That  below is supported by a breast in the loft, which then splits and goes through the property with a chimney breast in the front bedroom and front living room. (I’ve now just realised, when writing this out, that the split below the chimney breast on this side has no breast in the rear bedroom but does in the read living room, so I need to check this with the surveyor as it’s not mentioned)

On the right hand side, there is a chimney breast in the roof space and a chimney stack above the rear roof, that looks like it is only on our side of the roof, is much smaller than the other chimney stack and is the only property with two chimneys in the row of houses. This chimney breast in the roof doesn’t exist below the roof space, which is into another bedroom and then below that the kitchen space. The side of the property where this is, those neighbours have a chimney stack on the opposite side of their property and from photos of when their property was up for sale, I can’t see a chimney breast on that wall. 

IronMan22

Just to now add - it would appear that other properties do have this 2nd chimney on the rear roof, and is quite common on others (an afternoon spent looking on Google Maps and Earth) and like the larger chimney stacks on the other side of the property, is across our property and next door. 

Someone in the family suggested/speculated that it might be through the property but be smaller/'within the walls'. From the properties nearby I can see inside through previous sales, where the chimney breast is missing is ultimately above the kitchen. These are c1900 built terraced houses - might it be something more historical?