Lose 20K on trading 212 on one trade

eastmidsaver

i hope you took screenshots of your customer service chat, or made a note of time of call and who you spoke to.  you should begin the complaint process asap,  and if they do not uphold it,  then go to the FOS.  sadly, if you take the FOS route then you may be waiting for a few months.

Thrugelmir

joshua5056 said:

Thrugelmir said:

joshua5056 said:

csgohan4 said:

Assuming this is a genuine, I hope you knew the risks of trading on individual shares.  I learnt my lesson from biotech recently, although I lost a lot less than you have. Haven't lost sleep because it's an amount I could live with.

Gambling significant amounts of money you clearly can ill afford to lose is a recipe for disaster. 

Thanks for the reply . I thought I was being careful ,  I set a stop lose at $17 ,  the most I could lose was around 8%.  But hey, never see that coming . 

Stop loss isn't a guaranteed safety net.  Somebody needs to be on the other side of the trade. If the share price falls rapidly no one is going to book an immediate loss and take the stock from you. 

 the stop loss order is finally filled at $16.99 , but at that time the market price is around $21.30 to $22 dollar ,

Your order was fulfilled when the market recovered. Somebody made an instant profit. Once the price had fallen below your ceiling you needed to cancel the pending trade. 




 Isn't Clover health the latest meme stock in the USA?  That's playing with fire. The name of the game is pump and dump. Volatile share markets are little more than casino speculation.  As a retail investor you'll be trading through an execution house. Not directly on the markets. When price movements become exaggerated the execution house will stop quoting live prices. On the London markets there'd be a 10 minute timeout called to maintain an orderly market. In the US trading is undertaken differently.  If you want to play with the big boys then upgrade to a fully fledged stockbroker , more expensive to trade but greater control over trades. 


Appears as if Trading 212 doesn't have the bandwidth to cope with the madness that exists these days. Hardly surprising.  One does wonder how this is all going to end. Restriction on stocks that can be traded by retail investors seems the obvious outcome. As the outlay isn't warranted for the potential return. 

What drew you to Clover Health? 

I sense something dodge going on too ,  my sell order filled at 14:47 at price $17 and $16.61,  but buy order filled at 14:48 at price $21.87.  one is at current market price,  one is not.    During the whole hour 13:41 to 14:48, the orders were pending, can't cancel, can't do anything.  maybe there is more dark secret to dig...

I was paying attention to AMC , CLOVER, WORKHORSE, SENEONICS, those stock are being heavily shorted.  Clover had a short interest of 40% , those few days,  AMC had huge pump to the upside, although not a short squeeze, but had a gamma squeeze. Those meme stocks are kind of targets for Retails traders, especially the WSB.  on 8th of  June, I saw a huge pump before market for Clover Health, up 40%.   once the market open, I saw huge volume of activity , at 200 Million, which is  the amount Volume AMC had the day before when AMC had a huge pump. then I looked at AMC, the volume drop dramatically. I know that day was about Clover,  with Clover being a smaller market cap Company than AMC,  I knew that huge volume and FOMO kicks in, it  could pump the price even more. despite  premarket being up 40% already, I went in for a trade, bought in $18.50.  set a stop loss at $17, it briefly drop below $17, then pump all the way to $24.88.    unfortunately I didn't choose the right broker.     

or maybe fortunately , I didn't get the make the quick profit have been a good thing, I learn my lesson, staying away from those gambling trades now,  although I did set a stop loss,  that still didn't work out. 

As I was live chatting with the customer service that day,  they told me, their primary broker is interactive broker, interactive broker had a issue , I am guessing something to do with that huge volume on that day . 

Got tell you , that was hell of a ride, watching my portfolio when from 40k to 38 to 37k, 41k,46k,48k,52k,54k,50k,49k,46k,-33k,to 0. all happened in an hour.   And I can't do anything but watch.    

thanks for the input.  will keep you updated . 

Nothing dodge. You are playing ball with hedge funds and the like that are trading directly on the markets using algorithms. Unless you've access to a live price feed. As a retail investor you are at a disadvantage. Treating the stock exchange as a casino is unfortunately going to result in burnt fingers for many. 

You weren't alone. There'd be several million US investors playing the same game as you. All attempting to place trades concurrently. Only ever stake what you can afford to lose.  We all learn from experience when it comes to investing. Believing that we can easily beat the market with our unique trading system. When we have no advantage at all. 

Suggest you take a read of 

The Smart Money Method: How to pick stocks like a hedge fund pro  : by Stephen Clapham

A useful insight into the diligence required into rationalising the decision as to whether to buy an individual stock.  Not the least the hours spent researching. 

joshua5056

DireEmblem said:

As others have said, do you understand how financial markets work/risks & how to raise/escalate concerns if not adequately resolved by your broker.  Did you really put 100% of your portfolio, 40k into a single stock?

This would be a good read:

ww.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/how-to-complain

My 2p would be not to put 100% of your investments in a single company stock.

Yeah, I did, 40k in that account, and 14k in a ISA account, I put 54k.  fortunately the ISA account didn't have a issue. 
I thought If I set a stop loss, how much can I lose?   but did not see the System !!!!!! up coming. 

thanks for the advise!!  I have learned my lesson.

joshua5056

The Smart Money Method: How to pick stocks like a hedge fund pro  : by Stephen Clapham

A useful insight into the diligence required into rationalising the decision as to whether to buy an individual stock.  Not the least the hours spent researching. 

will definitely have a read. thanks very much!

joshua5056

eastmidsaver said:

i hope you took screenshots of your customer service chat, or made a note of time of call and who you spoke to.  you should begin the complaint process asap,  and if they do not uphold it,  then go to the FOS.  sadly, if you take the FOS route then you may be waiting for a few months.

thanks for the reply,
I didn't take screen shot of the customer service chat, at the moment, didn't know it was gonna end like that,  they probably have their chat history( But I double they will easily hand it over) . I did have screen shot of the order pending , and my portfolio briefly went to negative £33k.  I have filed a complaint at the compliance apartment, I will see what they say,  the next step is to go to FOS, and may eventually file a law suit.  

DireEmblem

joshua5056 said: 

I will see what they say

This is your next step, as per the FOS.

Taking an outside view, their system should not have allowed you to sell your position twice.  Your second sell, and the subsequent buy as you were in a short position, should be cancelled.  Similar to the HL post someone earlier made.

I hope you were polite and pointed out the execution.  I would politely explain it to them that it appeared on the system that your $17 stop loss did not go through, so you tried to instruct the sell manually to limit your loss.  You do not see it as your issue that the system allowed you to sell out your position twice, so you should not be short the difference between the second sell, and the purchase to correct the position.

If you worded it that way, I am sure you would get the correct response.

I would be careful with the language you use with escalating as it can unintentionally come across as negative and put up walls.

Similarly if/when 212 clarify the position, I hope you thank them if they resolve amicably.

Thrugelmir

DireEmblem said:

joshua5056 said: 

I will see what they say

Taking an outside view, their system should not have allowed you to sell your position twice.  Your second sell, and the subsequent buy as you were in a short position, should be cancelled.  Similar to the HL post someone earlier made.

Trading 212 allows short selling. Unlike the majority of consumer platforms. Some would say it's gamified investing offering facilities that the majority of retail investors shouldn't have any need to access. 

DireEmblem

The short selling is on the CFD side.  It is split into 3.  CFD, Invest, ISA.  The OP says they were using the Invest part which does not allow short positions.  Hence speak to customer services(someone who knows what they are talking about), in an appropriate manner, and it should be sorted out.

joshua5056

DireEmblem said:

joshua5056 said: 

I will see what they say

This is your next step, as per the FOS.

Taking an outside view, their system should not have allowed you to sell your position twice.  Your second sell, and the subsequent buy as you were in a short position, should be cancelled.  Similar to the HL post someone earlier made.

I hope you were polite and pointed out the execution.  I would politely explain it to them that it appeared on the system that your $17 stop loss did not go through, so you tried to instruct the sell manually to limit your loss.  You do not see it as your issue that the system allowed you to sell out your position twice, so you should not be short the difference between the second sell, and the purchase to correct the position.

If you worded it that way, I am sure you would get the correct response.

I would be careful with the language you use with escalating as it can unintentionally come across as negative and put up walls.

Similarly if/when 212 clarify the position, I hope you thank them if they resolve amicably.

that is the what I have been pointing out ,  the second sale should never been allowed to happen.   I apply to them as you said.  

but they reply is  "In order for me to answer your questions, I will have to explain the way the systems work. As you are aware once you submit an order you have up to 95% to use. Once the order is executed, there can be a difference and if the system has executed a buy with more shares it has to sell the ones that have been purchased. Once it comes to selling has the same workaround, however, it will create a Buy order to nullify the additional shares that are being made. 

What has happened, is that you have submitted a sell order that got doubled in our provider's systems and due to the lack of connection. Thus it has been sold limiting the owned shares to 0 and after that they have applied another sell for the same quantity. As it has been executed, it had to be reversed. " 

So I reply t is clearly  it got doubled in your system,   my question should it allowed to be doubled in the first place ?  there should be a mechanism in place to prevent that happen,  there should be reasonable care and diligence how the system created. 

when It appeared on the system that the $17 stop loss did not go through,  it is natually to try if manual sale can take effect.  I do not see it as my issue that the system allowed to sell out the position twice. So I should not be short the difference between the second sell, and the purchase to correct the position.


I wasn't  rude in the early exchanges of the emails, but there is definitely expression of frustration in the emails. 
It is very unfair for me to take the loss on the second trade.  

thank you for the help . 

joshua5056

DireEmblem said:

The short selling is on the CFD side.  It is split into 3.  CFD, Invest, ISA.  The OP says they were using the Invest part which does not allow short positions.  Hence speak to customer services(someone who knows what they are talking about), in an appropriate manner, and it should be sorted out.

yes, I was using the cash account, no short selling here.   
I am exchanged so many emails with them.  it is not very easy.  keep trying.   thanks for the reply