Lose 20K on trading 212 on one trade

joshua5056

masonic said:

It is well known and a general problem with stop losses that if the price takes a nose-dive well below the stop loss it can fail to execute. They should be used with caution for smaller, illiquid shares. In this case your stop loss was executed correctly and at the correct price.

The mess around selling shares you did not own and the balancing repurchase is for them to sort out. Hargreaves Lansdown had a similar problem not so long ago and removed the offending trades in people's accounts.

I have no doubts you'll be put back into the position you would have been in if you bought the shares and had the stop loss triggered when they fell below the specified price, i.e. the 8% loss you were expecting.

I do agree with you, if it was just one sale at stop loss at $16.99 , I would be ok with it. I can’t make peace with shares been sold twice and bought back by them to balance the books, that is their action, not my action.  

I will keep email them to sort out the issue.  

More on the Hargreaves and Lansdown issue.   So they had to remove the offending trades in people’s account ?
were there a law suit or anything , or is it just complaint from their customers.  

Many thanks 

masonic

joshua5056 said:

More on the Hargreaves and Lansdown issue.   So they had to remove the offending trades in people’s account ?
were there a law suit or anything , or is it just complaint from their customers. 

The issue affected quite a number of customers, some of them were forum members. One had 7 or 8 duplicate trades and a negative cash balance of about £100k at one point if I remember rightly. Some customers complained, and once HL got onto it they sorted it out for everyone in a couple of days. They removed all traces of the duplicate trades from people's accounts. At least some of those trades would have gone through, so there would have been consequences for HL in balancing the books, but it would be their liability when the trade results from an error in their systems.

These things happen from time to time. The key is for the company to act promptly and ensure the customer is left in the position they would have been in if the issue had not occurred. I suggest you give them some time to fix the issue, and if they don't resolve it that would be the time to pursue a complaint.

People don't generally being law suits against companies offering them services as consumers as there are good consumer protections that don't have any legal costs. If you've gone through a complaints process, referred to the Financial Ombudsman Service, and still not got a satisfactory outcome, only then would it possibly be worth spending money on a legal claim.

Thrugelmir

joshua5056 said:

csgohan4 said:

Assuming this is a genuine, I hope you knew the risks of trading on individual shares.  I learnt my lesson from biotech recently, although I lost a lot less than you have. Haven't lost sleep because it's an amount I could live with.

Gambling significant amounts of money you clearly can ill afford to lose is a recipe for disaster. 

Thanks for the reply . I thought I was being careful ,  I set a stop lose at $17 ,  the most I could lose was around 8%.  But hey, never see that coming . 

Stop loss isn't a guaranteed safety net.  Somebody needs to be on the other side of the trade. If the share price falls rapidly no one is going to book an immediate loss and take the stock from you. 

 the stop loss order is finally filled at $16.99 , but at that time the market price is around $21.30 to $22 dollar ,

Your order was fulfilled when the market recovered. Somebody made an instant profit. Once the price had fallen below your ceiling you needed to cancel the pending trade. 




 Isn't Clover health the latest meme stock in the USA?  That's playing with fire. The name of the game is pump and dump. Volatile share markets are little more than casino speculation.  As a retail investor you'll be trading through an execution house. Not directly on the markets. When price movements become exaggerated the execution house will stop quoting live prices. On the London markets there'd be a 10 minute timeout called to maintain an orderly market. In the US trading is undertaken differently.  If you want to play with the big boys then upgrade to a fully fledged stockbroker , more expensive to trade but greater control over trades. 


Appears as if Trading 212 doesn't have the bandwidth to cope with the madness that exists these days. Hardly surprising.  One does wonder how this is all going to end. Restriction on stocks that can be traded by retail investors seems the obvious outcome. As the outlay isn't warranted for the potential return. 

What drew you to Clover Health? 

joshua5056

masonic said:

The issue affected quite a number of customers, some of them were forum members. One had 7 or 8 duplicate trades and a negative cash balance of about £100k at one point if I remember rightly. Some customers complained, and once HL got onto it they sorted it out for everyone in a couple of days. They removed all traces of the duplicate trades from people's accounts. At least some of those trades would have gone through, so there would have been consequences for HL in balancing the books, but it would be their liability when the trade results from an error in their systems.

These things happen from time to time. The key is for the company to act promptly and ensure the customer is left in the position they would have been in if the issue had not occurred. I suggest you give them some time to fix the issue, and if they don't resolve it that would be the time to pursue a complaint.

People don't generally being law suits against companies offering them services as consumers as there are good consumer protections that don't have any legal costs. If you've gone through a complaints process, referred to the Financial Ombudsman Service, and still not got a satisfactory outcome, only then would it possibly be worth spending money on a legal claim.

ok , appreciate the information.  I have been email with them back and forth, 
 they always just reply with same old, we tried to fill your order, then discovered a technical difficulty from our intermediary's side, which resulted in a lack of connection between them and them,  bla bla, and also stating my order are being filled successfully eventually  ..

  then when  I ask them question like,  why sell order fill at 14:47 at price of $17 and $16.61 , but the buy order filled at 14:48 at price of $21.87?   or I ask shouldn't your system have a mechanism to prevent shares been sold twice?  they never come back with a straight answer.  

I will keep trying. 
much appreciated

joshua5056

Thrugelmir said:

joshua5056 said:

csgohan4 said:

Assuming this is a genuine, I hope you knew the risks of trading on individual shares.  I learnt my lesson from biotech recently, although I lost a lot less than you have. Haven't lost sleep because it's an amount I could live with.

Gambling significant amounts of money you clearly can ill afford to lose is a recipe for disaster. 

Thanks for the reply . I thought I was being careful ,  I set a stop lose at $17 ,  the most I could lose was around 8%.  But hey, never see that coming . 

Stop loss isn't a guaranteed safety net.  Somebody needs to be on the other side of the trade. If the share price falls rapidly no one is going to book an immediate loss and take the stock from you. 

 the stop loss order is finally filled at $16.99 , but at that time the market price is around $21.30 to $22 dollar ,

Your order was fulfilled when the market recovered. Somebody made an instant profit. Once the price had fallen below your ceiling you needed to cancel the pending trade. 




 Isn't Clover health the latest meme stock in the USA?  That's playing with fire. The name of the game is pump and dump. Volatile share markets are little more than casino speculation.  As a retail investor you'll be trading through an execution house. Not directly on the markets. When price movements become exaggerated the execution house will stop quoting live prices. On the London markets there'd be a 10 minute timeout called to maintain an orderly market. In the US trading is undertaken differently.  If you want to play with the big boys then upgrade to a fully fledged stockbroker , more expensive to trade but greater control over trades. 


Appears as if Trading 212 doesn't have the bandwidth to cope with the madness that exists these days. Hardly surprising.  One does wonder how this is all going to end. Restriction on stocks that can be traded by retail investors seems the obvious outcome. As the outlay isn't warranted for the potential return. 

What drew you to Clover Health? 

I sense something dodge going on too ,  my sell order filled at 14:47 at price $17 and $16.61,  but buy order filled at 14:48 at price $21.87.  one is at current market price,  one is not.    During the whole hour 13:41 to 14:48, the orders were pending, can't cancel, can't do anything.  maybe there is more dark secret to dig...

I was paying attention to AMC , CLOVER, WORKHORSE, SENEONICS, those stock are being heavily shorted.  Clover had a short interest of 40% , those few days,  AMC had huge pump to the upside, although not a short squeeze, but had a gamma squeeze. Those meme stocks are kind of targets for Retails traders, especially the WSB.  on 8th of  June, I saw a huge pump before market for Clover Health, up 40%.   once the market open, I saw huge volume of activity , at 200 Million, which is  the amount Volume AMC had the day before when AMC had a huge pump. then I looked at AMC, the volume drop dramatically. I know that day was about Clover,  with Clover being a smaller market cap Company than AMC,  I knew that huge volume and FOMO kicks in, it  could pump the price even more. despite  premarket being up 40% already, I went in for a trade, bought in $18.50.  set a stop loss at $17, it briefly drop below $17, then pump all the way to $24.88.    unfortunately I didn't choose the right broker.     

or maybe fortunately , I didn't get the make the quick profit have been a good thing, I learn my lesson, staying away from those gambling trades now,  although I did set a stop loss,  that still didn't work out. 

As I was live chatting with the customer service that day,  they told me, their primary broker is interactive broker, interactive broker had a issue , I am guessing something to do with that huge volume on that day . 

Got tell you , that was hell of a ride, watching my portfolio when from 40k to 38 to 37k, 41k,46k,48k,52k,54k,50k,49k,46k,-33k,to 0. all happened in an hour.   And I can't do anything but watch.    

thanks for the input.  will keep you updated . 

csgohan4

be careful with meme stocks and what you read on Reddit, get it right you could have 100's thousands in profit, get it wrong, well you know the rest. 

AMC, Gamestop e.t.c. I try not invest in stock that makes me lose sleep. I have a fun fund where it is around <5% of my portfolio for my gambling tendencies. 

I certainly wouldn't pump 10's thousands in the hope for 5-10% gain in a short period and sell. It is too stressful and it would become like ebay, constantly refreshing to see if it is time to sell or buy.

Everyone has their risk appetite, some higher than others. I do hold a significant amount in IAG/RR but these are recovery stocks which are unlikely to be so volatile and/or risk of bankruptcy, least one would hope.  

I used to hold CINE but sold due to my inexperience and not holding once they were down 30% at one point, if I did, I would have doubled my money sadly. 

We all live and learn and I hope you have learnt a lot OP. 

joshua5056

csgohan4 said:

be careful with meme stocks and what you read on Reddit, get it right you could have 100's thousands in profit, get it wrong, well you know the rest. 

AMC, Gamestop e.t.c. I try not invest in stock that makes me lose sleep. I have a fun fund where it is around <5% of my portfolio for my gambling tendencies. 

I certainly wouldn't pump 10's thousands in the hope for 5-10% gain in a short period and sell. It is too stressful and it would become like ebay, constantly refreshing to see if it is time to sell or buy.

Everyone has their risk appetite, some higher than others. I do hold a significant amount in IAG/RR but these are recovery stocks which are unlikely to be so volatile and/or risk of bankruptcy, least one would hope.  

I used to hold CINE but sold due to my inexperience and not holding once they were down 30% at one point, if I did, I would have doubled my money sadly. 

We all live and learn and I hope you have learnt a lot OP. 

thanks for the reply. 

I am off those trades now, even with a stop loss, didn't see the broker issue coming.   those trades are extremely stressful, I was staring at the candle chat the whole time.  

I was holding quite a bit of IAG /RR/CINE  as well, made a little profit,  got inpatient,  started buying other American Growth stock, then from March to May, those growth stock and tech stock took a huge pull back, I  end up burning my self even more,  luckily I didn't panic sell, but added a bit to bring down my average cost. I was doing ok until this Clover Health incident happened.  learn my lesson . going back to fundamentals, no more short trades.    and Bitcoin is on discount at the moment, I bought a bit and go long on this one. 

Cheers and have a great day!

csgohan4

joshua5056 said:

csgohan4 said:

be careful with meme stocks and what you read on Reddit, get it right you could have 100's thousands in profit, get it wrong, well you know the rest. 

AMC, Gamestop e.t.c. I try not invest in stock that makes me lose sleep. I have a fun fund where it is around <5% of my portfolio for my gambling tendencies. 

I certainly wouldn't pump 10's thousands in the hope for 5-10% gain in a short period and sell. It is too stressful and it would become like ebay, constantly refreshing to see if it is time to sell or buy.

Everyone has their risk appetite, some higher than others. I do hold a significant amount in IAG/RR but these are recovery stocks which are unlikely to be so volatile and/or risk of bankruptcy, least one would hope.  

I used to hold CINE but sold due to my inexperience and not holding once they were down 30% at one point, if I did, I would have doubled my money sadly. 

We all live and learn and I hope you have learnt a lot OP. 

thanks for the reply. 

I am off those trades now, even with a stop loss, didn't see the broker issue coming.   those trades are extremely stressful, I was staring at the candle chat the whole time.  

I was holding quite a bit of IAG /RR/CINE  as well, made a little profit,  got inpatient,  started buying other American Growth stock, then from March to May, those growth stock and tech stock took a huge pull back, I  end up burning my self even more,  luckily I didn't panic sell, but added a bit to bring down my average cost. I was doing ok until this Clover Health incident happened.  learn my lesson . going back to fundamentals, no more short trades.    and Bitcoin is on discount at the moment, I bought a bit and go long on this one. 

Cheers and have a great day!

we all make mistakes, not many people will admit them on here. They will harp on how they made millions on BTC, yolo, have fun staying poor rhetoric. 

If you have money you can afford to lose, sure try your hand at individual stocks, but it is alot more riskier. You could overweight and try stocks which alot of the index tracker have like Amazon, Baba but even they have risks attached. 

For now stick to index trackers +/- satellite funds until you feel you have enough confidence in dabbling in individual stocks again. Even the most researched stock will often surprise you. TSLA being an example.

If Covid hadn't hit I would have ploughed all my money in index trackers e.t.c, but there was a reasonable opportunity with IAG/RR and I took it, but not without risk however.  

joshua5056

csgohan4 said:

joshua5056 said:

csgohan4 said:

be careful with meme stocks and what you read on Reddit, get it right you could have 100's thousands in profit, get it wrong, well you know the rest. 

AMC, Gamestop e.t.c. I try not invest in stock that makes me lose sleep. I have a fun fund where it is around <5% of my portfolio for my gambling tendencies. 

I certainly wouldn't pump 10's thousands in the hope for 5-10% gain in a short period and sell. It is too stressful and it would become like ebay, constantly refreshing to see if it is time to sell or buy.

Everyone has their risk appetite, some higher than others. I do hold a significant amount in IAG/RR but these are recovery stocks which are unlikely to be so volatile and/or risk of bankruptcy, least one would hope.  

I used to hold CINE but sold due to my inexperience and not holding once they were down 30% at one point, if I did, I would have doubled my money sadly. 

We all live and learn and I hope you have learnt a lot OP. 

thanks for the reply. 

I am off those trades now, even with a stop loss, didn't see the broker issue coming.   those trades are extremely stressful, I was staring at the candle chat the whole time.  

I was holding quite a bit of IAG /RR/CINE  as well, made a little profit,  got inpatient,  started buying other American Growth stock, then from March to May, those growth stock and tech stock took a huge pull back, I  end up burning my self even more,  luckily I didn't panic sell, but added a bit to bring down my average cost. I was doing ok until this Clover Health incident happened.  learn my lesson . going back to fundamentals, no more short trades.    and Bitcoin is on discount at the moment, I bought a bit and go long on this one. 

Cheers and have a great day!

we all make mistakes, not many people will admit them on here. They will harp on how they made millions on BTC, yolo, have fun staying poor rhetoric. 

If you have money you can afford to lose, sure try your hand at individual stocks, but it is alot more riskier. You could overweight and try stocks which alot of the index tracker have like Amazon, Baba but even they have risks attached. 

For now stick to index trackers +/- satellite funds until you feel you have enough confidence in dabbling in individual stocks again. Even the most researched stock will often surprise you. TSLA being an example.

If Covid hadn't hit I would have ploughed all my money in index trackers e.t.c, but there was a reasonable opportunity with IAG/RR and I took it, but not without risk however.  

Thanks for the advice , I will definitely need to diversify the portfolio .  

Good luck with future endeavours !!

DireEmblem

As others have said, do you understand how financial markets work/risks & how to raise/escalate concerns if not adequately resolved by your broker.  Did you really put 100% of your portfolio, 40k into a single stock?

This would be a good read:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/how-to-complain

My 2p would be not to put 100% of your investments in a single company stock.