Can You Reduce or Change Parental Contact Without Involving a Solicitor?

LocoLoco

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help as I'm struggling to wade through information on the internet.

My sister has an informal arrangement regarding access with her former partner.  There were a lot of problems within the relationship (verbal/emotional abuse, controlling behaviour, drugs and alcohol - the partner, not her!) which is why she ended it.  She wanted things to be amicable and wanted him to see the children but his behaviour is making that very difficult.  She's looking into using a contact centre to ensure the children are safe when they're with him but it would mean him seeing quite a lot less of them than he does at the moment.  I just wondered, can she reduce contact whether he agrees or not or would she need to speak to a solicitor first?

Sorry for the questions; neither one of us has dealt with this before and as she's very stressed and upset I'm trying to get information together for her so she can just make one or two calls rather than having to wade through reams of stuff.  I found information about breaking a court order but as there isn't one in place I wondered what the situation is for informal arrangements?

Many thanks in advance for any answers, much appreciated.

squirrelchops2

Hi
Your sister is highly unlikely to be able to use a contact centre unless social services are involved, it is a child protection matter or care proceedings have been issued - the reason I say this is that their resources are tight and usually would only take on really difficult cases. 
A far better, if possible way of doing it if possible (and if he needs 'supervision') would be to look for someone else within the family who could be around during the contact - this would be what the court would look into if necessary in any case.

If your sister has concerns that the children are not safe she could stop or curtail contact and he then would have to make an application to court to see them.  Your sister must however look at the picture as a whole - although his behaviour toward her may not be good, is this reason enough for him not to see his children? Yes he may use alcohol etc but if he is sober during contact then there is no reason he cant see the children. If the drop off/handovers are difficult get someone else to do it or have a third party there. 


I would also advise your sister to get in touch with local domestic abuse agencies, Womens Aid etc as they will support her also.

LocoLoco

Thank you, Squirrelchops, that's helpful to know.  They had arranged supervised contact (his girlfriend being present) but her daughter is still coming home upset about things that he's said and done (it's his behaviour towards the eldest girl that's the problem, my sister is only in contact with him by text to arrange days and times with the children and he seems to be fine with the younger child).  Both he and the girlfriend deny doing anything but both children have the same account afterwards (the younger one saying that Daddy always shouts at x and says mean things to her).  I think she would rather not stop contact altogether as the kids love him and want to see him which is why I think the contact centre was being looked into as a way of them being able to spend time together without him being able to shout and swear at the eldest child.  We weren't sure if legally she could stop all contact against his (and the children's) wishes.

She has made contact with a charity (I think it's Women's Aid) and she's been speaking to someone there so I think at the moment it's trying to figure out options and just make sure she doesn't do something that a court would frown on if it did get to that stage.  She's very distressed by it all and I'm trying to be supportive but I've not had to deal with this sort of thing before so it's a bit of a steep learning curve

The info you've given is very helpful, thank you, and I will pass it on when I speak to her later.  Thanks again.

RAS

So it is actually his behaviour towards (one of) the children that is the problem?  How old are the children?

Two issues there,

one being that really she needs evidence, so perhaps tape the children if it happens again.
the other that children often hold contradictory desires; the elder child wants to see daddy because she wants him to love her, and she doesn't want to see daddy because he shouts at her. So whatever mum does is going to be problematic.

Legally it a bit of a minefield because the children have the right to see both parents, and to be safe.  Is there anyone else in the family who could supervise access? It's a pretty big ask, I know.

TBagpuss

Is there an existing order about contact? If there is, then she should apply to the court to vary that order, but can in the meantime take steps to protect the children if she feels they are at risk, so she could stop or reduce contact while applying. 

She would not be acting illegally or breaking any law if she stops contact, if there isn't an order in place, but if it goes to court then it is likely to look better if she can show that she has made effrts to try to ensure that some contact continues to take place. 

Squirrelchops is wrong to say she would not be able to use a contact entre. Contact centres are often used by families who have no involvement with Social Services, and you can normally self-refer, although referrals can also be made via a solicitor or, in some cases, through social services. https://naccc.org.uk/for-parents/ 

Most contact centres provide supported, rather than supervised contact, they are normally run by volunteers, often organised through the WRVS, or local Mothers Union or similar organisations.

The volunteers who will ensure that no-one who is not authorised takes part in the contact, and that children are not taken out of the centre unless this has been agreed, they don't monitor what's said or report back to anyone .

there are also contact centres which are run on a professional/commercial basis - they often provide supervised or observed contact on behalf of social services and staff will often be trained social workers. This kind of centre is typically also available for privately paying families, and can offer services like one-to-one supervision, or accompanied / escorted contact (where a staff member is present but contact takes place away from the centre) They charge for their services and how much it costs will depend on what you want (for instance, individual, escorted contact might cost £100+ per hour, with costs varying depending on whether you want to use it at weekends or in the week)

Other things to think about:

Is there a pattern to his behaviour? For instance, does it seem as though incidents of him shouting happen towards the end of the contact or later in the day? If so, maybe shorter periods of contact so he is less likely to lose patience, would be worth considering. Does he still drink, and f so, is it possible that the times he shouts are linked to him either being hungover, or craving a drink? Again, varying timings might work.

Is there a third party whom she trusts and who would be willing to help? For instance, would it be a possibility to have contact at the home of his parents and for them to involved to ensure that he behaves appropriately?

indirect contact - facetime, zoom etc can be ways to let children have contact without them being exposed to any direct threats

How old a re the children? Do they have any support of their own? It's worth your sister taking to the school to ask if they have any resources, so there is someone outside the family that the children can talk to to. If not via school, you could ask your GP or local council about support services - I know in my local area, for example, Barnardos run an art group / support group where children are encouraged and supported to talk about their feelings, and  the staff are trained  counsellors / support workers. It sounds as though Child would benefit from some support to deal with their own feelings but also to help them understand that Dad's behaviour is Dad's responsibility and does not reflect on the child or their worth. Child wanting Dad to love them is natural, but also only a short step from child blaming themselves, if Dad is mean or angry, especially if he denies it or treats other people differently.

Your sister might find it helpful to talk to a solicitor - many family lawyers offer a free initial consultation - she can look at resolution.org.uk to find local lawyers who specialize in family law and offer free initial advice

LocoLoco

Hi Ras, yes, it's essentially the way he behaves with one child (they're seven and five; it's the older one who comes home upset).  This is the way he used to behave with my sister and is one of the reasons she ended the relationship.  She's recorded what her daughter tells her when she comes home but there's no recording of the actual behaviour (although the five year old comments on it at home).  It is difficult, isn't it, she wants him to see the kids and there's really no reason for him to be causing the problems that he is but I think this is his personality.  She has told him how upset he makes their little one but it doesn't seem to have made any difference.  She would like it to be amicable and easy for everyone but he doesn't seem to want the same thing.  There isn't anyone else who could supervise, unfortunately, we come from an abusive family ourselves so it's only myself and my sister in contact and we live on opposite sides of the country.  His family are all very much like him and the last time they were all together the little one came home in tears because she had all of them telling her how awful she is all afternoon.  It's really horrible; she's a sweet little kid and very bright.  It's very hard to know how best to go forward - as you say, either way is difficult.  Best would be for him to change his behaviour but he doesn't seem to be willing to do that.  Thanks for the info, it's very helpful.

TBagPuss, thank you for all of that, I will pass it on to her.  No contact order in place; she's tried to keep it all amicable and informal but it isn't working out well for the kids just now.  She'd rather he did carry on seeing them which is why the contact centre seemed like a good compromise.  I'll look into it some more; what someone mentioned to her was a place that's like a playgroup?  So it's not one to one supervision but there are a number of families there and there are staff around.  I'll see what else I can find out about places local to her - the private paying thing sounds good but expensive!  I don't know about patterns; his personality in general is quite controlling and shouty, he's always drunk a lot and I think that's fairly constant too.  I'll mention it to her, though, she'd probably notice things like that more than I would be aware of.

School are aware and the school counsellor is involved, which is good.  I think at this stage I'm just trying to help by finding out more about different options so that, whatever happens next, we know what's coming and how best to handle it.  She's coping but finding it all very stressful.  There isn't really anyone else that can step in; part of his controlling behaviour was that she didn't really have friends and we've no other family (I live too far away to do anything practical, hence trying to help with this side of things instead).  I think her main worry is repeating the abuse patterns - we're from an abusive family ourselves and my sister was having counselling, and through that she saw that she was in the same sort of relationship with her partner, which is why she ended it.  Now she's concerned about not letting the kids go through the same thing and have the same sorts of problems in adult life, but of course they do love their dad and not seeing him at all would also cause problems all round.  It's difficult, isn't it?  I don't know about anything like the art/support group you mention but I'll have a look round and see if something like that is in their area.

Thanks ever so much for all of the help, everyone, I feel better equipped to help her now!  It's such a difficult situation to deal with.  So silly on his part as well, they're lovely kids, he'd be mad to let this situation turn bad.  Thanks very much again.

TBagpuss

Yes, like a playgroup is a fairly good way to describe it - they are often in church or village halls and will usually have some toys for the children, and often the option to buy basic drinks or snacks.  The referral form usually asks you to state explicitly who is allowed to be part of the contact, whether the children can be taken out of the centre (a lot of families will start with contact in the centre, then use it as a handover point before moving to fully independent contact) 

Staff will turn away a parent who or or appears to be under the influence of rugs or alcohol, but beyond that are not generally monitoring or keeping records of what is being said, although they might step in to offer to help if a child is visibly upset, ask a parent to leave who was aggressive, and in either of those cases would tell the other parent what had happened. They don't, however, normally provide reports to the court.

LocoLoco

Thanks TBagPuss, I'll pass all of that on to her.  I think he's just less likely to be nasty to her when there are other people around.  My sister is worried that he'll just say no and then not see them at all, which she knows will upset them.  Equally him upsetting his own daughter like this isn't okay either.  But at least it means she has some options and they don't necessarily involve court action.  I have suggested a solicitor just to get sound advice so I think that's on the list; she's a bit overwhelmed with it all at the moment.  Hopefully the situation will improve over time.  Thanks again to everyone for all the help.

squirrelchops2

Thanks TBagPuss for correcting me re contact centres. Things have obviously moved on since I last worked within children's service in any capacity and for the better in this regard by the sound of it

TBagpuss

squirrelchops2 said:

Thanks TBagPuss for correcting me re contact centres. Things have obviously moved on since I last worked within children's service in any capacity and for the better in this regard by the sound of it

If you were working in children's services you were perhaps more familiar with  supported / supervised contact through social services? Which isn't normally available in 'normal' separations! 

Contact centers used in private cases have been around for at least 30 years (I think with individual centres , some are older, but that's when a national organisation was set up)   but they're normally completely separate from the resources available for families where Social Services are involved, so you might not have come across them much if that was your field! 

squirrelchops2

TBagpuss said:

squirrelchops2 said:

Thanks TBagPuss for correcting me re contact centres. Things have obviously moved on since I last worked within children's service in any capacity and for the better in this regard by the sound of it

If you were working in children's services you were perhaps more familiar with  supported / supervised contact through social services? Which isn't normally available in 'normal' separations! 

Contact centers used in private cases have been around for at least 30 years (I think with individual centres , some are older, but that's when a national organisation was set up)   but they're normally completely separate from the resources available for families where Social Services are involved, so you might not have come across them much if that was your field! 

You are spot on with why I didn't know TBagPuss! Mind you I am not in that field of work anymore (thank goodness)!