Deferred Pension help please.

JAG61NZ

Hello there.

I am wondering if someone may be able to help me please.

I am female and reach GMP and NRD in December. I have a Deferred pension with the Barclays 1964 Scheme.

For several years I received a letter from Barclays informing me of increases to my Pension.

My Pension dates are between May 1988 - Nov 1997. I have both GMP and Excess.

When TW took over, now WTW the letters stopped but they gave me a revaluation of the deferred Pension on request and 
eventually you could run your own.

When my normal retirement quotation arrived I was surprise to see that the Excess part of the Pension was lower than the 
figure in the revaluation report.

I have queried this and the outcome is that the Report uses Scheme Rules and the NRD quotation uses Statutory Rules.

Does anyone please know what statutory rules.

I am now questioning what will happen when in payment. 

The only information I have ever received has been scheme rules which make no mention of statutory rules and
the Report which uses scheme rules.

They have advised the following

*******************************************************************************************

Normal Retirement Date;

 

Guaranteed Minimum Pension at date of leaving + Excess Scheme Revalued to NRD at Scheme Revaluation rate (or Statutory Revaluation if higher) = Annual pension

 

Guaranteed Minimum Pension Age

 

            Guaranteed Minimum Pension revalued to GMP age + Excess Scheme Revalued to NRD at statutory rate = Annual pension

 

As your NRD & GMP age are the same the GMP age calculation is the one used for your pension at NRD.

**************************************************************************************************

I asked about the annual review in October regarding the excess increase and they said their would be no change as they were using

Statutory Rules.

Please does anyone one Know the statutory rules for my example above. It is starting to look like my Pension will not increase when in payment.

Thank you

Jacqueline

Marcon

JAG61NZ said:

Hello there.

I am wondering if someone may be able to help me please.

I am female and reach GMP and NRD in December. I have a Deferred pension with the Barclays 1964 Scheme.

For several years I received a letter from Barclays informing me of increases to my Pension.

My Pension dates are between May 1988 - Nov 1997. I have both GMP and Excess.

When TW took over, now WTW the letters stopped but they gave me a revaluation of the deferred Pension on request and 
eventually you could run your own.

When my normal retirement quotation arrived I was surprise to see that the Excess part of the Pension was lower than the 
figure in the revaluation report.

I have queried this and the outcome is that the Report uses Scheme Rules and the NRD quotation uses Statutory Rules.

Does anyone please know what statutory rules.

I am now questioning what will happen when in payment. 

The only information I have ever received has been scheme rules which make no mention of statutory rules and
the Report which uses scheme rules.

They have advised the following

*******************************************************************************************

Normal Retirement Date;

 

Guaranteed Minimum Pension at date of leaving + Excess Scheme Revalued to NRD at Scheme Revaluation rate (or Statutory Revaluation if higher) = Annual pension

 

Guaranteed Minimum Pension Age

 

            Guaranteed Minimum Pension revalued to GMP age + Excess Scheme Revalued to NRD at statutory rate = Annual pension

 

As your NRD & GMP age are the same the GMP age calculation is the one used for your pension at NRD.

**************************************************************************************************

I asked about the annual review in October regarding the excess increase and they said their would be no change as they were using

Statutory Rules.

Please does anyone one Know the statutory rules for my example above. It is starting to look like my Pension will not increase when in payment.

Thank you

Jacqueline

Your pension will increase once it comes into payment. There's a helpful explanation here: https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/retirement-choices/pensions-in-payment/annual-increases

JAG61NZ

Many thanks Marcon

I actually got my dates wrong I am May 88 to Nov 96.

So according to the above information no increase to the above GMP by law

" Each year, your scheme must increase your pension (above your GMP) as follows:

• any pension built up after 6 April 1997 is increased in line with the consumer prices index (CPI) or 5%, whichever is lower
• any pension built up after 6 April 2005 is increased in line with the consumer prices index (CPI) or 2.5%, whichever is lower.

However, your scheme does not have to increase any part of your income built up from savings made before 6 April 1997, except for the GMP.

These are the minimum increases that your scheme has to pay, by law. Your scheme may increase your pension above these levels. These additional increases may be set out in the scheme rules or paid on a discretionary basis. Where it is the latter, the scheme has no obligation to continue to apply the increases."

BUT 
 
"GMP built up from 6 April 1988 to 5 April 1997 is increased by the scheme up to a cap of 3%".

The scheme rules have never mentioned the statutory rules and all documentation sent and given to me
states an increase to above GMP up to 5% RPI max nothing about post April 1997 stat rules. 

I guess at anytime the scheme or any other scheme could revert to the law and not pay increases if they wished for
excess earned prior to April 1997.

I suppose i should just take my 8K and be grateful.

JAG61NZ

Did these laws change recently as I was not informed of them and the website still said that my pension would increase up to 5% RPI until I reached 60 and so did everything else I have read in the scheme. 

I am not familiar with current rules as I am in New Zealand and have not been on here for four years when I used the I'd JAG61. Many people helped me regarding GMP ,a  Prudential missold pension review and how to get my old and New state pension.

This Barclays I thought was going to be easy and straight forward but it far from it. 

I believed everything would be done to the scheme rules.

xylophone

I have a Deferred pension with the Barclays 1964 Scheme.

In your case, you are female (so that  as you say, your Scheme NRA and GMP age are the same) and you are intending to draw your deferred pension at Scheme NRA.

You received a statement of deferred benefits when you left the Scheme (after having joined in May 1988) in 1996?

presumably it showed

Pre 88 GMP (£0 in your case)

Post 88 GMP

Excess.

I had thought that  in deferment, the Barclays Scheme used Fixed Rate revaluation for GMP (in your case this would have been 7%) while the excess increased under Scheme Rules.

Thus, as a female  about to draw your deferred pension at Scheme NRA (which happens to align with female GMP age), one would have expected you to be given the figure for total Scheme pension  and the split into post 88 GMP and excess.

Once  in payment the Scheme would then have to increase your GMP amount by up to 3% CPI and the excess under Scheme Rules.

It also appears that at State Pension Age (check that this is current SPA rather than former female SPA), the Barclays Scheme makes a  State Pension Reduction. 

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2001/nov/10/features.jobsmoney2

Statutory Rules are here

https://www.barnett-waddingham.co.uk/comment-insight/blog/revaluation-for-early-leavers/

xylophone

Have you obtained a State Pension Forecast?

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad

I am in New Zealand 

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/pensions/travelling-or-moving/social-security-agreements/uk-pensions-paid-in-nz-faqs.html

xylophone

Your old thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71158822#Comment_71158822

JAG61NZ

Hi there Xylophone

Hope you are well - its been a while. 

Yes correct that was thread my Pension story.  It did continue with the Prudential. I moved it last year on a QROPS transfer a little tricky as, if I return  to the UK before 4 complete tax years have gone by I will need to repay 25,000 GDP to the tax man.
I am happy with my decision. 

I thought that the Barclays was going to be plain sailing but NO.
This one can not move on a QROPS as the tax this end would be circa 39% no tax free sums I am afraid over here.

Figures are all GMP at 7% which is correct on the quotation

778.44  revalued to 3948.53 I am happy with that.

Its the excess which has got me confused.

I received a report on the 27th May 2021 showing the revaluation of the excess to that date of 5353.08 but 
the quote is showing

Guaranteed Minimum Pension 9GMP) built up after 5 April 1988      3948.36
Scheme Pension (over the GMP) built up before 6 April 1997            4955.69
Total Scheme Pension at Retirement                                                   8904.05
At state Pension Age your scheme pension will be reduced by           331.22 a year

I was like yourself under the impression that the excess increased in line with scheme rules up until in Payment and then continued to do so on the same Rule - increase in line with RPI up to a maximum of 5% unless Barclays felt generous to allow it to go higher.

The answer I got regarding the difference between the 5353.08 figure and the 4955.69 figure was that the higher figure was calculated by using the scheme Rules and the 4955.69 by using Statutory Rules - there is no mention at all about this in any of the paperwork I have on this.

The website says it will increase in line with the 5% max Rule or RPI if less, The Booklet "what happens to your Pension when you leave Barclays "says the 5% Rule or RPI if less , Details in a hand-out April 2014 say 5% rule or RPI if less . The letter sent to me when I left employment clearly states the 5% Rule or RPI if less , the letters informing me of an increase in my deferred excess Pension tells me my increase and restates the 5% Rule or RPI if less nothing anywhere states statutory revaluation other than GMP increase at GMP date (60).

I cant argue with them they have me over a barrel despite everything I have. I asked about this years increase and was told NO increase they use statutory rules for me. This is so unethical.

I have asked about future payments and I am still waiting to hear.

Do you know of anyone else in this situation.

And yes I have all my Old State Pension papers as you instructed me to get them and I also emailed to find out what happens if I come home and know what I need to supply them with.

It would be nice to know if other folks have received increases in line with what was promised.

JAG61NZ

It also appears that at State Pension Age (check that this is current SPA rather than former female SPA), the Barclays Scheme makes a  State Pension Reduction. 

The guardian story is interesting regarding the lady and Claw back.

This is an interesting point. I will also ask that as well when does the SPA deduction kick in now or when I am 67

JAG61NZ

Many thanks for all the links Xylophone, I will spend time tomorrow reading the Statutory link to Barnett and Waddington.

I am sure WTW are wrong but what can I do 

xylophone

RPI here

https://www.swanlowpark.co.uk/retail-price-index


The scheme rules indicate  up to 5% or RPI if lower.





 See https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05656/

as well as the BW link referenced above.


You have been given the figures for your deferred GMP revalued to GMP age (and  Scheme NRA in your case).

You  appear to have two figures for your excess over GMP revalued to  SNRA.


(A) £5353.08    You have been told that this is revaluation under Scheme Rules (which also accord with link above and with the information given for post 1991 leavers in BW link.

(B) £4955.69     You have been told that this is Statutory Revaluation - does this mean S52a Orders (see BW link) ?


Why has one been selected over the other, particularly in the light of what is stated in your post above

Normal Retirement Date;

 

Guaranteed Minimum Pension at date of leaving + Excess Scheme Revalued to NRD at Scheme Revaluation rate (or Statutory Revaluation if higher) = Annual pension

I am  puzzled - you might find a call to TPAS helpful (assuming that this is possible given time zone/cost etc) or you are going to have to query it again by letter with WTW.

And good luck with that......

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4736856/barclays-final-salary-pension-gmp-excess-revaluation-anti-franking/p17

With regard to increases when your pension comes into payment, see

https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/retirement-choices/pensions-in-payment/annual-increases#:~:text=the part of your pension, if any, coming from your,%, whichever is lower; and

While it is the case that there is no obligation  to escalate pre 97 accrual, 

Your scheme may increase your pension above these levels. These additional increases may be set out in the scheme rules 

It appears that such increases are indeed set out in the Barclays Scheme Rules.

What does your Scheme Guide say about  increase in payment?