BAN on gas boilers 2025??

Ebe_Scrooge

outlaw777 said:

The most efficient electric room heaters & hot water system please advise?

All electric heating is 100% efficient.  1kwh of leccy put in equals 1kwh out heat emitted.  The only difference is the method by which the heat is emitted - fan heaters give instant heat, oil-filled rads give a slightly more gradual heat build-up and cooling-off.  Infra-red heaters heat you rather than the room.

If you want electric, then the only thing you can do is look at off-peak storage heating.  The same laws of physics apply (ye canna change them), but they burn cheaper-rate electricity.  And modern storage heaters are pretty well insulated and have decent controls, so they can store the heat and release the heat at convenient times a bit better than the old ones of 30 years ago.  But you'll never get away from the fact that it'll cost 1kwh of electricity for every 1kwh of heat you want to be dished out, no matter what a slick snake-oil salesman will tell you.

casper_gutman

Any conventional electric heater is basically 100% efficient (ignoring losses at the power station or in transmitting energy to your home).

You can beat this by using a heat pump: you pay for the energy needed to operate a machine  which transfers energy from the environment into your home. The heat energy you get can be a few times more than the energy you pay for.

The problem is, where to extract the heat from. It can come from the air outside, but that needs a big box with noisy fans, usually installed in the garden. Not easy in most flats. Or, it can come from the ground - but this needs a large area to bury pipes, or a deep (expensive) borehole. Not easy in a flat. Or it can come from water. Does your flat have a lake or river? 

Personally, I'd probably buy a gas boiler. The fact that you might not be able to get a like-for-like replacement in 10-15 years' time probably doesn't change the economic argument now.

Le_Kirk

casper_gutman said:

You can beat this by using a heat pump: you pay for the energy needed to operate a machine  which transfers energy from the environment into your home. The heat energy you get can be a few times more than the energy you pay for.
The problem is, where to extract the heat from. It can come from the air outside, but that needs a big box with noisy fans, usually installed in the garden. Not easy in most flats. Or, it can come from the ground - but this needs a large area to bury pipes, or a deep (expensive) borehole. Not easy in a flat. Or it can come from water. Does your flat have a lake or river? 

I would like to see some science behind the air/ground source heat pumps.  Given that we don't get something for nothing and that nature abhors a vacuum and will always try to equalise itself; if we take heat out of the ground, nature will try to put it back in again by taking it out of the air, therefore the air temperature (admittedly localised) will drop.  Some may say this is good as it will reduce the temperature of the planet and counteract global warming.  I question it and am ready to be educated as to why we seemingly get something nothing.  Also the temperature of the ground at 11 degrees will not heat up a house without the use of compressor and some form of medium, think reverse refrigerant.  The system has to be powered by something, say electricity which also is not free!  I have also seen reports that any system like this will not heat stored water above 50 degrees; perfect breeding ground for legionella.

grumbler

Le_Kirk said:

casper_gutman said:

You can beat this by using a heat pump: you pay for the energy needed to operate a machine  which transfers energy from the environment into your home. The heat energy you get can be a few times more than the energy you pay for.
The problem is, where to extract the heat from. It can come from the air outside, but that needs a big box with noisy fans, usually installed in the garden. Not easy in most flats. Or, it can come from the ground - but this needs a large area to bury pipes, or a deep (expensive) borehole. Not easy in a flat. Or it can come from water. Does your flat have a lake or river? 

I would like to see some science behind the air/ground source heat pumps.  Given that we don't get something for nothing and that nature abhors a vacuum and will always try to equalise itself; if we take heat out of the ground, nature will try to put it back in again by taking it out of the air, therefore the air temperature (admittedly localised) will drop.  Some may say this is good as it will reduce the temperature of the planet and counteract global warming.  I question it and am ready to be educated as to why we seemingly get something nothing.  Also the temperature of the ground at 11 degrees will not heat up a house without the use of compressor and some form of medium, think reverse refrigerant.  The system has to be powered by something, say electricity which also is not free!  I have also seen reports that any system like this will not heat stored water above 50 degrees; perfect breeding ground for legionella.

I don't understand your point.

Yes, a heat pump is a sort of reversed refrigerator.

Yes, it uses energy to pump the heat - say, 1kWh of electric power to pump 3-4kWh of heat to a house. So, you get much more heat than by using a usual electric heater.  The only problem is that you have to invest too much in the system and will probably never get this money back while gas remains cheap.

These 3-4kWh neither heat the planet, nor cool it - the balance is zero.  1kWh used for pumping does heat the planet if it was produced by burning fossil fuel. Likewise any fridge ultimately heats the house by the energy it consumes from the mains.

TELLIT01

Electricity may be 100% efficient, but it isn't as practical as gas for cooking, unless you have an induction hob.  Conventional lectric hobs take time to heat up and remain hot even after use.  Gas is instantly turn onable/offable.

shinytop

Le_Kirk said:

casper_gutman said:

You can beat this by using a heat pump: you pay for the energy needed to operate a machine  which transfers energy from the environment into your home. The heat energy you get can be a few times more than the energy you pay for.
The problem is, where to extract the heat from. It can come from the air outside, but that needs a big box with noisy fans, usually installed in the garden. Not easy in most flats. Or, it can come from the ground - but this needs a large area to bury pipes, or a deep (expensive) borehole. Not easy in a flat. Or it can come from water. Does your flat have a lake or river? 

I would like to see some science behind the air/ground source heat pumps.  Given that we don't get something for nothing and that nature abhors a vacuum and will always try to equalise itself; if we take heat out of the ground, nature will try to put it back in again by taking it out of the air, therefore the air temperature (admittedly localised) will drop.  Some may say this is good as it will reduce the temperature of the planet and counteract global warming.  I question it and am ready to be educated as to why we seemingly get something nothing.  Also the temperature of the ground at 11 degrees will not heat up a house without the use of compressor and some form of medium, think reverse refrigerant.  The system has to be powered by something, say electricity which also is not free!  I have also seen reports that any system like this will not heat stored water above 50 degrees; perfect breeding ground for legionella.

The science behind heat pumps is well known; just use google. I won't try and explain.  You are right in a way though because you can cool yourself down with a nice blast of cold air in this hot weather if the ASHP happens to be running.
 
ASHPs typically heat water to 50 degrees (which is hot enough for your shower/hand washing) but periodically use an immersion heater to boost it to 60 degrees or so to kill off legionella. 

casper_gutman

Le_Kirk said:

casper_gutman said:

You can beat this by using a heat pump: you pay for the energy needed to operate a machine  which transfers energy from the environment into your home. The heat energy you get can be a few times more than the energy you pay for.
The problem is, where to extract the heat from. It can come from the air outside, but that needs a big box with noisy fans, usually installed in the garden. Not easy in most flats. Or, it can come from the ground - but this needs a large area to bury pipes, or a deep (expensive) borehole. Not easy in a flat. Or it can come from water. Does your flat have a lake or river? 

I would like to see some science behind the air/ground source heat pumps.  Given that we don't get something for nothing and that nature abhors a vacuum and will always try to equalise itself; if we take heat out of the ground, nature will try to put it back in again by taking it out of the air, therefore the air temperature (admittedly localised) will drop.  Some may say this is good as it will reduce the temperature of the planet and counteract global warming.  I question it and am ready to be educated as to why we seemingly get something nothing.  Also the temperature of the ground at 11 degrees will not heat up a house without the use of compressor and some form of medium, think reverse refrigerant.  The system has to be powered by something, say electricity which also is not free!  I have also seen reports that any system like this will not heat stored water above 50 degrees; perfect breeding ground for legionella.

The temperature of the ground (or air, or water) doesn't heat your house without using a compressor and refrigerant. It basically works like a fridge, except instead of warming your kitchen a little bit using heat taken from the little space inside the fridge, it warms your kitchen (and other rooms) a bigger bit using heat taken from the somewhat bigger outside world!

Rosa_Damascena

TELLIT01 said:

Electricity may be 100% efficient, but it isn't as practical as gas for cooking, unless you have an induction hob.  Conventional lectric hobs take time to heat up and remain hot even after use.  Gas is instantly turn onable/offable.

Gas ovens however are rare these days, haven't seen one for decades.

twopenny

I'm desperate for one having had them all my life until now.

Very eccononomical for cooking because of the different layers of heat. You can cook a complete meal with pudding using the different temperatures/different selves.

You can also go out to the pub or for a swim while it's cooking and come back to a full cooked meal with veg that tastes good because it hasn't been boiled.

Mickey666

outlaw777 said:

This is such a tough decision and could cost a lot of money you know

Not really.  The serviceable life of a gas boiler is what?  About 15 years?  20 if you're lucky.   So that's your planning timescale and during that time your gas boiler (I'm assuming mains gas) will give you the cheapest form of heating there is.  So it seems a very easy decision to me because any of the various alternatives will cost a lot more, both to install and to run.

After 15-20 years you'll then be faced with what to replace it with and who knows how the world will have changed by then?  Things like heat pumps will likely have become much cheaper because of mass production, or perhaps government might have caved in and extended the gas boiler ban, or perhaps people will be rioting in the streets because their energy prices have gone through the roof?  There's so much uncertainty that you can pretty much paint your own picture.

So, whatever happens over the next 15-20 years, assuming the government doesn't actually turn off the gas supply, a mains gas boiler is going to be the cheapest option, both to install and to run.  Not a tough decision at all.