Who is the client when a solicitor is executor?

RetSol

But if our mother's estate is this solicitor's client then presumably they 'should' advise us? 

Hello @DisappointedSiblings.  The estate is a different entity to you.  You are a beneficiary of the estate and have limited rights other than to have the estate distributed properly according to the will.

The solicitor’s client is the estate, and as a joint executor your step father is the only person the solicitor is going to deal with. 

That's pretty much the situation.

When you say 'you may be vulnerable' can you explain how that could manifest so we can be aware.

What I am thinking about is that, in principle, your interests under the will can be protected by an entry on the property's title at the Land registry. This should be done as a matter of course and you can check yourself that a restriction has been entered. 

However, if the property is sold rapidly, whilst the executors have a duty to carry out your mother's will and the fact that the executors are solicitors ought to be sufficient to protect you, it will be more difficult for you to be sure that everything is being done properly.  I am assuming that title to the property is registered at the Land registry.  It may not be in which case you do not have the potential protection of a restriction on the register.  

Some will say that I am being  paranoid on your behalf but, in your shoes, I would be leaving no stone unturned to protect my interests. 

DisappointedSiblings

RetSol said:

But if our mother's estate is this solicitor's client then presumably they 'should' advise us? 

Hello @DisappointedSiblings.  The estate is a different entity to you.  You are a beneficiary of the estate and have limited rights other than to have the estate distributed properly according to the will.

The solicitor’s client is the estate, and as a joint executor your step father is the only person the solicitor is going to deal with. 

That's pretty much the situation.

When you say 'you may be vulnerable' can you explain how that could manifest so we can be aware.

What I am thinking about is that, in principle, your interests under the will can be protected by an entry on the property's title at the Land registry. This should be done as a matter of course and you can check yourself that a restriction has been entered. 

However, if the property is sold rapidly, whilst the executors have a duty to carry out your mother's will and the fact that the executors are solicitors ought to be sufficient to protect you, it will be more difficult for you to be sure that everything is being done properly.  I am assuming that title to the property is registered at the Land registry.  It may not be in which case you do not have the potential protection of a restriction on the register.  

Some will say that I am being  paranoid on your behalf but, in your shoes, I would be leaving no stone unturned to protect my interests. 

Thank you for your advice.

Marcon

DisappointedSiblings said:

Unfortunately our mother died suddenly a few months ago.
My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. 

Your mum only died a few months ago, so you - and her widower - are all in the early stages of grief. Cut yourself, and him, some slack (I know, always easier said than done).

You say you have heard nothing and 'It's been weeks' - but what would you expect to hear so early in the process of administering her estate, given that relations between you and your stepfather have been so strained? It doesn't mean that there is anything untoward going on, just that matters are - as if so often the case - taking longer than you might have hoped.

If your childhood possessions are still in what used to be your home, and is now his, how will he know that you might now decide you'd like them if you don't tell him? From his perspective, he may simply view the matter as adult children doing what so many adult children do: using their childhood home as long term storage space because they haven't got round to sorting out what they do and don't want. Communications may be difficult, but a polite request (via the solicitor if necessary) gives him a better chance of knowing what you'd like; silence is a bit hard to interpret. It wouldn't be unreasonable for him to assume that is there were any 'childhood things' you still wanted, you could have taken them years ago. You didn't, so why now? he isn't a mind reader - and he too is newly bereaved.

DisappointedSiblings said:

We are not really sure whether any of our fathers investments still exist but we think they might now be part of her estate. Apparently The house is now in some kind of trust until it is sold, with half going to her children and the other half to his estate if he dies or if he sells up. We don’t know whether he could veto that and change her will, we fear our family home will be passed to his children without us even knowing?

We also think that he has his will written and held at a different solicitors and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

If your father died many years ago and left everything to your mother, 'his' investments will no longer exist - they will indeed have become hers.

No, he can't veto the half of the house that has been left to you - although you may have a long wait before you can access your share of the property, given the terms of your mother's will. Set up a property alert: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert and the Land Registry will automatically e-mail you if there is any 'activity' on the property. No harm at all in asking the solicitor to confirm when the property has been re-registered to show you and your siblings as tenants in common with your stepfather.

Nothing that strange about him using a different solicitor for his will.

DisappointedSiblings said:

We can understand her wanting to ‘protect’ him and make sure he had somewhere to live ( he didn’t pay towards anything, or repairs to the house though we think he did sell a small property when he moved in,so we think he has some funds - probably not relevant) but he appears to have been very controlling and honestly we feel this has all been engineered in his favour. We feel very exposed now and very unsure what to do. She would be so very disappointed. It's all so distressing. Thank you.

They were husband and wife. With all due respect, how they chose to arrange their finances is nothing to do with anyone other than the couple themselves. You 'think' he sold a property and you 'think' he has funds - but it was your mother's choice to marry him and her choice to write her will as she did. Looked at objectively, it's pretty fair: her husband is able to continue to live in his home (and it is his - you and your siblings moved out years ago) until he dies or chooses to move; and everything else, save for the house contents, is being divided between her husband and her children. Why would she be 'so very disappointed' that her wishes are being carried out?

If you would like a particular keepsake, let him know. You might be pleasantly surprised.

DisappointedSiblings

Marcon said:

DisappointedSiblings said:

Unfortunately our mother died suddenly a few months ago.
My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. 

Your mum only died a few months ago, so you - and her widower - are all in the early stages of grief. Cut yourself, and him, some slack (I know, always easier said than done).

You say you have heard nothing and 'It's been weeks' - but what would you expect to hear so early in the process of administering her estate, given that relations between you and your stepfather have been so strained? It doesn't mean that there is anything untoward going on, just that matters are - as if so often the case - taking longer than you might have hoped.

If your childhood possessions are still in what used to be your home, and is now his, how will he know that you might now decide you'd like them if you don't tell him? From his perspective, he may simply view the matter as adult children doing what so many adult children do: using their childhood home as long term storage space because they haven't got round to sorting out what they do and don't want. Communications may be difficult, but a polite request (via the solicitor if necessary) gives him a better chance of knowing what you'd like; silence is a bit hard to interpret. It wouldn't be unreasonable for him to assume that is there were any 'childhood things' you still wanted, you could have taken them years ago. You didn't, so why now? he isn't a mind reader - and he too is newly bereaved.

DisappointedSiblings said:

We are not really sure whether any of our fathers investments still exist but we think they might now be part of her estate. Apparently The house is now in some kind of trust until it is sold, with half going to her children and the other half to his estate if he dies or if he sells up. We don’t know whether he could veto that and change her will, we fear our family home will be passed to his children without us even knowing?

We also think that he has his will written and held at a different solicitors and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

If your father died many years ago and left everything to your mother, 'his' investments will no longer exist - they will indeed have become hers.

No, he can't veto the half of the house that has been left to you - although you may have a long wait before you can access your share of the property, given the terms of your mother's will. Set up a property alert: and the Land Registry will automatically e-mail you if there is any 'activity' on the property. No harm at all in asking the solicitor to confirm when the property has been re-registered to show you and your siblings as tenants in common with your stepfather.

Nothing that strange about him using a different solicitor for his will.

DisappointedSiblings said:

We can understand her wanting to ‘protect’ him and make sure he had somewhere to live ( he didn’t pay towards anything, or repairs to the house though we think he did sell a small property when he moved in,so we think he has some funds - probably not relevant) but he appears to have been very controlling and honestly we feel this has all been engineered in his favour. We feel very exposed now and very unsure what to do. She would be so very disappointed. It's all so distressing. Thank you.

They were husband and wife. With all due respect, how they chose to arrange their finances is nothing to do with anyone other than the couple themselves. You 'think' he sold a property and you 'think' he has funds - but it was your mother's choice to marry him and her choice to write her will as she did. Looked at objectively, it's pretty fair: her husband is able to continue to live in his home (and it is his - you and your siblings moved out years ago) until he dies or chooses to move; and everything else, save for the house contents, is being divided between her husband and her children. Why would she be 'so very disappointed' that her wishes are being carried out?

If you would like a particular keepsake, let him know. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Very many thanks for all of this. You speak a lot of sense and it is much appreciated at this difficult time. I haven't revealed much detail for so many reasons, but there are valid concerns why we are raising this. Thank you for taking the time to offer your advice.

Manxman_in_exile

DisappointedSiblings said:

.... My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. ... and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

...

If you have a copy of your mum's will then you know what she left your step-father and what she left you and your siblings. 

No - the executor of your mum's will (whether it's your step-father or somebody else) cannot go against your mother's wishes as expressed in her will.  But they do not have to follow any of your mother's wishes that are not in the will.  If you and your siblings do not get what the will says you should get, you may need to speak to a lawyer.

A few weeks is no time at all in dealing with an estate.  Could take up to a year - or longer if complicated.

If the house is held in trust then it sounds like your mum probably left the house to you and your siblings, but gave your step-father the right to live there until he dies.  When he dies the house completely belongs to you and your siblings.  He probably only has a right to live there and does not own any part of it, so he can't leave any of it to anyone else.  (I'm making certain assumptions there - impossible to be certain without seeing the wording of the will).  [See EDIT below]

Are you sure the copy of the will you have is your mother's last will?  I'm not suggesting it isn't, but you may want to confirm it is.

EDIT:  Having re-read your opening post you seem to think that your step-father has been left more than the bare right to live in the house, and that your mum actually left half of the house to him.  ie you and your siblings own one half and he the other.  You need to confirm what the will leaves him - does it leave him half the ownership of the house or just the right to live there?

DisappointedSiblings

Manxman_in_exile said:

DisappointedSiblings said:

.... My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. ... and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

...

If you have a copy of your mum's will then you know what she left your step-father and what she left you and your siblings. 

No - the executor of your mum's will (whether it's your step-father or somebody else) cannot go against your mother's wishes as expressed in her will.  But they do not have to follow any of your mother's wishes that are not in the will.  If you and your siblings do not get what the will says you should get, you may need to speak to a lawyer.

A few weeks is no time at all in dealing with an estate.  Could take up to a year - or longer if complicated.

If the house is held in trust then it sounds like your mum probably left the house to you and your siblings, but gave your step-father the right to live there until he dies.  When he dies the house completely belongs to you and your siblings.  He probably only has a right to live there and does not own any part of it, so he can't leave any of it to anyone else.  (I'm making certain assumptions there - impossible to be certain without seeing the wording of the will).  [See EDIT below]

Are you sure the copy of the will you have is your mother's last will?  I'm not suggesting it isn't, but you may want to confirm it is.

EDIT:  Having re-read your opening post you seem to think that your step-father has been left more than the bare right to live in the house, and that your mum actually left half of the house to him.  ie you and your siblings own one half and he the other.  You need to confirm what the will leaves him - does it leave him half the ownership of the house or just the right to live there?

Thank you. No we are not sure that the will is her last will, but we have asked. We only have a photocopy. It says he gets half when it's sold but it doesn't seem clear on what happens to the house when he dies? We do realise it is a very long and slow process. Thank you again for your wise words.

RAS

Even if it a photocopy, copying the exact wording of the section of the will referring to the house would enable people here to advise you more effectively.

RetSol

Even if it a photocopy, copying the exact wording of the section of the will referring to the house would enable people here to advise you more effectively.

TBH, I would not rely on the "advice" of peeps on here on the wording of a will.  And that includes my own advice!  This is one of the reasons why you might find it more beneficial ultimately to seek advice on the situation from your own solicitors. 

Marcon

RAS said:

Even if it a photocopy, copying the exact wording of the section of the will referring to the house would enable people here to advise you more effectively.

DisappointedSiblings said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

DisappointedSiblings said:

.... My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. ... and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

...

If you have a copy of your mum's will then you know what she left your step-father and what she left you and your siblings. 

No - the executor of your mum's will (whether it's your step-father or somebody else) cannot go against your mother's wishes as expressed in her will.  But they do not have to follow any of your mother's wishes that are not in the will.  If you and your siblings do not get what the will says you should get, you may need to speak to a lawyer.

A few weeks is no time at all in dealing with an estate.  Could take up to a year - or longer if complicated.

If the house is held in trust then it sounds like your mum probably left the house to you and your siblings, but gave your step-father the right to live there until he dies.  When he dies the house completely belongs to you and your siblings.  He probably only has a right to live there and does not own any part of it, so he can't leave any of it to anyone else.  (I'm making certain assumptions there - impossible to be certain without seeing the wording of the will).  [See EDIT below]

Are you sure the copy of the will you have is your mother's last will?  I'm not suggesting it isn't, but you may want to confirm it is.

EDIT:  Having re-read your opening post you seem to think that your step-father has been left more than the bare right to live in the house, and that your mum actually left half of the house to him.  ie you and your siblings own one half and he the other.  You need to confirm what the will leaves him - does it leave him half the ownership of the house or just the right to live there?

Thank you. No we are not sure that the will is her last will, but we have asked. We only have a photocopy. It says he gets half when it's sold but it doesn't seem clear on what happens to the house when he dies? We do realise it is a very long and slow process. Thank you again for your wise words.

If you aren't sure that it is the final version of her will, it's pointless speculating - and also there is little point in your seeking legal advice until you know whether there's anything on which you actually need advice.

Once probate has been granted, the will becomes public property and you can download a copy for £1.50: https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

In the meantime, you can take considerable comfort from the fact that your mother had the good sense to appoint a solicitor as one of her executors. There are plenty of threads on this site complaining about how long solicitors take - but that is usually because they are doing the job very thoroughly and by the book.

 

DisappointedSiblings

Marcon said:

RAS said:

Even if it a photocopy, copying the exact wording of the section of the will referring to the house would enable people here to advise you more effectively.

DisappointedSiblings said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

DisappointedSiblings said:

.... My siblings and I have a copy of her death certificate and her will, but have had nothing else from her husband or the solicitor at all. It's been weeks now. ... and we are worried that he can now veto our mum's wishes completely?

...

If you have a copy of your mum's will then you know what she left your step-father and what she left you and your siblings. 

No - the executor of your mum's will (whether it's your step-father or somebody else) cannot go against your mother's wishes as expressed in her will.  But they do not have to follow any of your mother's wishes that are not in the will.  If you and your siblings do not get what the will says you should get, you may need to speak to a lawyer.

A few weeks is no time at all in dealing with an estate.  Could take up to a year - or longer if complicated.

If the house is held in trust then it sounds like your mum probably left the house to you and your siblings, but gave your step-father the right to live there until he dies.  When he dies the house completely belongs to you and your siblings.  He probably only has a right to live there and does not own any part of it, so he can't leave any of it to anyone else.  (I'm making certain assumptions there - impossible to be certain without seeing the wording of the will).  [See EDIT below]

Are you sure the copy of the will you have is your mother's last will?  I'm not suggesting it isn't, but you may want to confirm it is.

EDIT:  Having re-read your opening post you seem to think that your step-father has been left more than the bare right to live in the house, and that your mum actually left half of the house to him.  ie you and your siblings own one half and he the other.  You need to confirm what the will leaves him - does it leave him half the ownership of the house or just the right to live there?

Thank you. No we are not sure that the will is her last will, but we have asked. We only have a photocopy. It says he gets half when it's sold but it doesn't seem clear on what happens to the house when he dies? We do realise it is a very long and slow process. Thank you again for your wise words.

If you aren't sure that it is the final version of her will, it's pointless speculating - and also there is little point in your seeking legal advice until you know whether there's anything on which you actually need advice.

Once probate has been granted, the will becomes public property and you can download a copy for £1.50:

In the meantime, you can take considerable comfort from the fact that your mother had the good sense to appoint a solicitor as one of her executors. There are plenty of threads on this site complaining about how long solicitors take - but that is usually because they are doing the job very thoroughly and by the book.

 

Thank you again. You have all been extremely helpful.