SUCCESS - CANCELLED! (UKPC Parking "fine" on leased car I no longer have)

Le_Kirk

savingisthegame said:

Should I wait for a "NTK" as I don't think what they sent was the NTK it was just the initial "invoice"?

Technically I can appeal now? or should I wait?

You won't get a NTK (Notice to Keeper), you should get a NTH (Notice to Hirer) once the lease company has transferred liability to you as hirer/lessee by using the tear off slip on the NTK that THEY received.

savingisthegame

Le_Kirk said:

savingisthegame said:

Should I wait for a "NTK" as I don't think what they sent was the NTK it was just the initial "invoice"?

Technically I can appeal now? or should I wait?

You won't get a NTK (Notice to Keeper), you should get a NTH (Notice to Hirer) once the lease company has transferred liability to you as hirer/lessee by using the tear off slip on the NTK that THEY received.

I don't even have the car any more so it won't be in name if they check again or is this irrelevant now as they already have details of the occupier.

 So I sit and wait see if the NTH turns up then use the templates suggested a few posts up (Edna ones). Or shall I check back into this thread.

What about the within 42 days it says about the "invoice" is not paid they will "we may have the legal right to recover the full amount of this parking invoice from the registered keeper"

Fruitcake

The scammers can't and won't check again. The DVLA gave the scammers the details of the keeper at the time of the alleged event.
The keeper, the hire/lease company, (hopefully) gave the scammers the details of the person who hired/leased the car at the time of the alleged event.

What happened afterwards is irrelevant.

As already advised, wait for the NTH in your name, then appeal using the edna basher appeal template for hire/lease cars.

You could ask the hire/lease company to confirm that they provided your details as hirer/lessee to the scammers, and let them know that once they have done so they are no longer liable. You will now will deal with this and the hire/lease company must not pay the charge on your behalf.

savingisthegame

Fruitcake said:

The scammers can't and won't check again. The DVLA gave the scammers the details of the keeper at the time of the alleged event.
The keeper, the hire/lease company, (hopefully) gave the scammers the details of the person who hired/leased the car at the time of the alleged event.

What happened afterwards is irrelevant.

As already advised, wait for the NTH in your name, then appeal using the edna basher appeal template for hire/lease cars.

You could ask the hire/lease company to confirm that they provided your details as hirer/lessee to the scammers, and let them know that once they have done so they are no longer liable. You will now will deal with this and the hire/lease company must not pay the charge on your behalf.

I will email the hire company now! thanks

savingisthegame

UPDATE: I have received the parking invoice under my own name and address today. I'm guessing I have to still wait for them to issue the NTH now?

KeithP

Sounds like what you have received is the Notice to Hirer.

It doesn't have to have those words on it, but it is a Notice and it is addressed to the Hirer.

Coupon-mad

savingisthegame said:

UPDATE: I have received the parking invoice under my own name and address today. I'm guessing I have to still wait for them to issue the NTH now?

No. As @KeithP says, that is obviously their attempt at a NTH.  No idea what you  are waiting for...

savingisthegame

Coupon-mad said:

savingisthegame said:

UPDATE: I have received the parking invoice under my own name and address today. I'm guessing I have to still wait for them to issue the NTH now?

No. As @KeithP says, that is obviously their attempt at a NTH.  No idea what you  are waiting for...

Oh i thought it had to actually say notice to keeper/hirer.

So what do i need to send now?

Oh yes use the Edna template. Is that a straight copy and paste do I need to add any thing or remove anything.

Obviously change the parking details to my own. 

Umkomaas

It's in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, first post, the relevant @EdnaBasher template. But leaving almost a fortnight's gap between your postings in a time-sensitive situation is flirting with danger of a timeout. 

savingisthegame

Umkomaas said:

It's in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, first post, the relevant @EdnaBasher template. But leaving almost a fortnight's gap between your postings in a time-sensitive situation is flirting with danger of a timeout. 

i know i fudged up. how is this for my appeal? it's only been 2 weeks otmorw since iv'e know about the charge as it's been sent to me.

"

UKPC

RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

I would like to inform you (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge relating to a parking infraction that you state took place on xx xxx at the xxxxx.

I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.

Keepers Liability and POFA 2012

As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

AND

Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

(2) The conditions are that —
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.[/I]

- You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (######).
- You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the NTK was sent to the hire company, which was xx October.
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than xx December 2015.
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.

In Summary:

• I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
  - I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .

• 
  - As UKPC has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
  - You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.
  
  Further Questions:
  To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:
  
  1. Who is the party that contracted with UKPC for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in ###############
  2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
  3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that UKPC have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
  4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
  5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
  6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
  7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
  8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on yellow lines being strictly prohibited at any time. Please provide a copy of the sign that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
  9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge. It is the responsibility of the claimant (UKPC) to mitigate their losses, in this instance I believe they failed to do so and thus invalidates your claim. I refer you to the county court judgement in VCS vs. Ibbotson (2012):
  
  Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
  
  Next Steps
  When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.
  
  Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for my day in court to challenge this PCN as the registered keeper of the vehicle.
  
  Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN"