APP Scam

lovelylass_2

Hi everyone, my mum has been a victim of APP scam.  They contacted her via WhatsApp claiming to be me and said i had lost my phone.  Now, they didn't say my name etc but started off by saying "Hi Mum" so mum linked it to me.  They went on saying that my hubby doesn't know i've lost my phone or that I'm in debt and i need two transactions of £3.5k to be made direct to the loan sharks so that i dont get the bailiffs around.  She is elderly, disabled and has mental health issues (but the bank isn't aware of these) other than they know her age.  Obviously, the fraudsters put pressure on her to get the transfer put through straight away.  They claimed that one of the payments hadn't gone through so tried to get her to make another transfer.  however, mum had transferred all her money so had no more to give.  She rang the bank to see why the payment had been stopped but the bank said to ring back in 48hrs.  When i found out what happened (next day), i logged a case with Halifax and also to Action Fraud.  THe offenders were still contacting my mum so they have now been blocked but she is now on a 'suckers' list where unknown mobiles are ringing all the time.  She is frightened, fearful and feels embarrassed for falling for the scam.  She is also broke and has no money in her account.  Now, i know that she authorised the payments as she did it by her online back but the high value of these transactions should have been flagged by the bank (in my opinion). n I'm in the process of putting a complaint into her bank as well as the other two bank accounts that the money was transferred too.  Is there any advice anyone to offer me in the hope of getting the money reimbursed?  Bearing in mind that Halifax are signed up to the APP scam code?  Thank you for reading.

Armorica

If possible you should speak to her bank with her - get her flagged as a vulnerable customer.
Halifax might refund the money - but I suspect it'll hinge on how vulnerable she is. After all, if you were in full health etc. a random person contacting you over whatsapp with a made up story should trigger major alarm bells.

Halifax may also be able to arrange a modest interest free overdraft to help with her living expenses for a while. I'm not sure what her income is etc. and so they'd need to consider a bit whether if could be repaid. 

3.5k isn't *that* high. What should have triggered it is a second payment so soon after the first.

Was COP used? In which case that would be another case not in her favour i.e. although given the loan shark story she'd have just matched to any name they gave her on the phone. The other problem is that for an organised loan shark you'd expect a company. And COP makes you pick between a personal and a business account. If she picked personal that may also count against.

For a semi-quick crash course in COP then https://psr.org.uk/media/ehfnk4qh/cp21-6-confirmation-of-payee-call-for-views.pdf was published on Friday.  While some of it is very technical, there are also questions and views around the messages that users see as part of the COP check and whether they are clear enough.

How feasible is it for her to change her mobile number? (i.e. would it be disruptive, or not so much if only a handful of people have the number?)

https://www.which.co.uk/money/banking/banking-security-and-new-ways-to-pay/online-banking-security/best-banks-for-dealing-with-bank-fraud-a8qp45d23x3l contains useful information as well as data from last year on who are the better banks at dealing with things like this (helpful if you want to consider moving banks).  

Edit: For others reading this, never do transfers like this! Even using debit or credit card is safer than bank transfers - they carry marginally more protection and someone has to be set up to accept them and there is usually more verification.

kaMelo

You don't actually say so but I'm assuming Halifax is your mother's bank rather than yours. I know you said you contacted the Halifax but it's not your account and you don't say you are her representative so do they need her permission first before they can discuss this with you or do they already have it?
Whilst it's highly unlikely to be able to do so the bank will try to recover the payments from the recipient banks(s)
Your mother, or you as her representative, will have to explain what happened and the bank will make a decision whether to cover the loss or not. 
Your opinion on the transactions is not relevant, what is relevant is the historical nature of other transactions made from this account.  Payments of £3,500 are totally normal for some people and totally abnormal for others, which one would your mother's account fall into matters, depending upon which one it could be argued either way whether the payments needed referral for further checks or not. 
Ultimately you have the option to complain and take it to the FOS if you're not happy with their response.  What the FOS Will decide is difficult to say but that's a long way off yet. You'll have to follow the process with the bank first.

colsten

Armorica said:

Was COP used? 

It's impossible to set up a new payee in Halifax banking without COP. So if the payee name matched the daughter's name, someone had set up an account in her name beforehand, possibly fraudulently. If the payee name did not match the daughter's name, the mother decided to send the money to someone with a different name.  It is very difficult to ignore the COP warnings, even for someone with mental impairments. 

As is always the case with such posts, the readers, and often also the posters, are not in possession of all the facts. Halifax will, however, have the exact details of how the new payee has been set up. 

lovelylass_2

Halifax is mums account and yes she does have to authorise the new payment on the online banking system. However, she embarrassed that she was taken in by such a scam and looking at the messages, I can understand why she was. I coukd ask her the same questions: 1. Its a number you don't know, why answer the messages, 2, why didn't you ring my husband to ascertain its me 3, if I wanted to borrow nearly £8k then j woukd ask you in person and not by text. She feels stupid and yes she should have know better. She watches watchdog etc who talk about scans all the time, she was more financial astute than me but in her world it seemed really genuine and I cant judge her for that.  All I can do is fight the battle to get her money back, if we can buteven I recognise the chances will be slim. Hence coming on here to see if anyone could offer advice or assistance. So ive logged a case with Halifax fraud (her bank) and action fraud.

kaMelo

I think this is the problem with scams like this, not that the person has been scammed which is bad enough but that they also feel foolish and embarrassed about it, thinking others will judge them as foolish also and as a result maybe they are less than complete with their account of what happened.
The facts of the case are what will determine the outcome, not what others think of what your mother did. Are the transactions out of character? If they are then the bank will have more expectation upon it to have questioned the transactions, maybe referring them for further checks before processing. Even though your mother called wanting to know why a payment hasn't gone through doesn't mean it will go against her. If the transactions are in line with previous transactions it will make things harder but not impossible.

Even though it may feel like shutting the gate after the horse it's also important to notify the bank about your mother's mental health problems. This changes the way a bank will deal with a customer and manage their account, it may have prevented these transactions going through in the first place but they can only help someone in this way if they know about it. They can't just presume that being old makes you vulnerable as many older customers do not need any extra help and would object to the presumption.

Armorica

colsten said:

Armorica said:

Was COP used? 

It's impossible to set up a new payee in Halifax banking without COP. So if the payee name matched the daughter's name, someone had set up an account in her name beforehand, possibly fraudulently. If the payee name did not match the daughter's name, the mother decided to send the money to someone with a different name.  It is very difficult to ignore the COP warnings, even for someone with mental impairments. 

As is always the case with such posts, the readers, and often also the posters, are not in possession of all the facts. Halifax will, however, have the exact details of how the new payee has been set up. 

Quite. I suspect the name was random tho - i.e. the name of the pretend loan sharks. Scammers are good at making up stories like that - whether personal or business would be a relevant factor, but they'd have changed their story to match in any case.

lovelylass_2

kaMelo said:

I think this is the problem with scams like this, not that the person has been scammed which is bad enough but that they also feel foolish and embarrassed about it, thinking others will judge them as foolish also and as a result maybe they are less than complete with their account of what happened.
The facts of the case are what will determine the outcome, not what others think of what your mother did. Are the transactions out of character? If they are then the bank will have more expectation upon it to have questioned the transactions, maybe referring them for further checks before processing. Even though your mother called wanting to know why a payment hasn't gone through doesn't mean it will go against her. If the transactions are in line with previous transactions it will make things harder but not impossible.

Even though it may feel like shutting the gate after the horse it's also important to notify the bank about your mother's mental health problems. This changes the way a bank will deal with a customer and manage their account, it may have prevented these transactions going through in the first place but they can only help someone in this way if they know about it. They can't just presume that being old makes you vulnerable as many older customers do not need any extra help and would object to the presumption.

Thank you. Ive now added her disability and mental health to the bank account so she identifies as vulnerable. These transactions are totally out of character. She does not transfer high amounts at all. Its normally for shopping or her hair. 

naedanger

It sounds like you are doing all the right things on behalf of your mother by putting in a formal complaint and ultimately taking it to FOS if necessary.

It also sounds like you are doing your research e.g. by reading the APP code.
I expect you have seen the following link (but have included it just in case you haven't):
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/complaints-can-help/fraud-scams

It may also help searching the FOS database of complaints to see how they approach similar cases:
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions
e.g. search using keyword APP code etc

lovelylass_2

naedanger said:

It sounds like you are doing all the right things on behalf of your mother by putting in a formal complaint and ultimately taking it to FOS if necessary.

It also sounds like you are doing your research e.g. by reading the APP code.
I expect you have seen the following link (but have included it just in case you haven't):
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/complaints-can-help/fraud-scams

It may also help searching the FOS database of complaints to see how they approach similar cases:
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions
e.g. search using keyword APP code etc

Thank you So much for your help on this.  My mum has received one payment back as they were able to retrieve this from the account it was sent to.  The other payment on the other hand has been removed from the receiving account so they have refused to refund this payment.  But i will fight for the right outcome of this case.  The impact this has had on my mother is devastating.

lovelylass_2

Hi Everyone

Just wanted to provide an update to the APP scam.  After complaining to Halifax, my mum received one of the payments back within 2 weeks and then 3 months later she received half of the other payment back.  Still no response to the original complaint (the money just appeared in the bank account) so in order to close this (she will still be at a loss but no where big as the original £8k!!) we will be writing to them and escalating to the Ombudsman.  Thank you all for your advice but i wanted to let you know as lot of the time these posts are put on and no update given.