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happypie
happypie Posts: 151 Forumite
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edited 6 September 2021 at 12:23PM in Redundancy & redundancy planning
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  • theoretica
    theoretica Posts: 12,275 Forumite
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    You say he is senior to you - it is very common for companies to trust the more senior person and choose their approach.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 32,634 Forumite
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    edited 21 May 2021 at 12:44AM
    Being of a different race does not automatically mean that the reasons for their decisions are based on unlawful discrimination.
    Whatever your views the company are obviously ok with his solutions or they wouldn’t keep his contract going. And his seniority will carry weight regardless of anything else. 

    Is there a reason this thread is in the redundancy section, or is that a mistake? 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 32,634 Forumite
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    edited 21 May 2021 at 1:14AM
    If you want legal advice you need to speak to a properly qualified solicitor. This is an anonymous forum and people mean well but may not always know what they’re talking about. 
    You prove your case by providing evidence. What evidence do you have, other than a feeling that they’re white and you’re not so it must be discrimination? 

    Are you querying the redundancy process? 
    And he’s a contractor but you were an employee? 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • adamp87
    adamp87 Posts: 862 Forumite
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    edited 21 May 2021 at 2:13AM
    On the information you have gave above I don’t see how it is race related. It appears just from that information you’ve deduced what’s perhaps different between the team & made a huge assumption. 

    Someone whom is senior will always receive more leeway, & to be fair if you are constantly critiquing someone above you or whom is in a leadership capacity over you - you are causing a problem and will be seen as unprofessional.

    Sometimes there is a need to do so, but as you’ve stated you’ve had many arguments & critiquing his code quality to be blunt, I reckon you’ve seemed like a hassle/nuisance to be honest. 

    Edit: Realise that sounds a bit harsh but it’s just based off the above. Workplaces are political & you choose your battles. Constantly arguing with a superior for the most part isn’t wise. There’s more succinct ways to get concerns across.
  • theoretica
    theoretica Posts: 12,275 Forumite
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    The company going with the opinions of the more senior person will be a very strong defence against claims of racism (though may be poor business sense).
    How did you end up in your relative positions in the company?  If, for instance, he was appointed before you then there is likely to be no racism aspect.  Did you apply for his role and not get it?
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
  • General_Grant
    General_Grant Posts: 4,821 Forumite
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    edited 21 May 2021 at 12:38PM
    I would expect the employer to have to show that none of their employees could do the work being undertaken by the contractor.  To avoid redundancy (which is what they are supposed to do if possible) they should consider the skills of their employees rather than continue using a contractor (who would not qualify for redundancy pay) nor should they include the contractor in the pool of workers for redeployment
  • lincroft1710
    lincroft1710 Posts: 17,600 Forumite
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    happypie said:
    I would expect the employer to have to show that none of their employees could do the work being undertaken by the contractor.  To avoid redundancy (which is what they are supposed to do if possible) they should consider the skills of their employees rather than continue using a contractor (who would not qualify for redundancy pay) nor should they include the contractor in the pool of workers for redeployment
    however I could definitely do what he was doing and in a better way, imo.
    Your problem is that your seniors don't agree with your opinion.

    To be blunt, if you have consistently criticised a senior to those even more senior, you will have been considered to be a non team player and a liability. Any claims of racial discrimination can be countered by your disrespectful attitude towards a senior colleague as the reason for letting you go

    Your face doesn't fit because of your race but because of your attitude and behaviour
    If you are querying your Council Tax band would you please state whether you are in England, Scotland or Wales
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
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    No requirement to pool all perms against a contractor CTO.

    Sound like you and the others failed to put up any robust alternative proposals.

    Employment tribunal don't deal with employees trying to tell owners how to run their business



  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 29,603 Forumite
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    happypie said:
    I would expect the employer to have to show that none of their employees could do the work being undertaken by the contractor.  To avoid redundancy (which is what they are supposed to do if possible) they should consider the skills of their employees rather than continue using a contractor (who would not qualify for redundancy pay) nor should they include the contractor in the pool of workers for redeployment
    Thats great point, I didn't think of that.
    Contractor is cto (chief technical officer) and I was senior developer, however I could definitely do what he was doing and in a better way, imo.
    I disagree (30 years in IT, 25 in development).
    a chief technical officer/architect is not the same “role” as a software developer so I would say you shouldn’t be in the same pool.
    i think it’s going to be extremely hard and maybe impossible to prove racism (even if it exists)
    ultimately your opinion that you can do the job as well as him is just that - your opinion.
    also it’s not just about writing/designing code.
    its about communicating, being a team player etc. And from what you’ve said I think they could have more evidence about you not being a team player than you have for racism.
    what is your evidence that there choices are based on racism? I have seen none so far.
    it sounds like they think he is better whether you agree or not.
  • adamp87
    adamp87 Posts: 862 Forumite
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    happypie said:
    elsien said:
    If you want legal advice you need to speak to a properly qualified solicitor. This is an anonymous forum and people mean well but may not always know what they’re talking about. 
    You prove your case by providing evidence. What evidence do you have, other than a feeling that they’re white and you’re not so it must be discrimination? 

    Are you querying the redundancy process? 
    And he’s a contractor but you were an employee? 
    Yes I am claiming for unfair dismissal as well.
    And a claim for race discrimination - they have fired a different race person before me who also challenged this seniors work.
    In another team also they made a much junior person (white) a team lead whereas there were at least 2 other people much more senior to him, but of different race.

    Yes I am permanent and this senior guy is a contractor. He joined before me. He was my team lead but later promoted to architect and then to cto, and I stayed at my current role.

    I can see why you may think that but you’ll have a hard time proving that to be honest. 

    Seniority or experience doesn’t always automatically equal promotion, as someone whom leads teams can certainly vouch for. Sometimes it’s personality; soft skills that make the difference. 

    You may be privy to more information but on the face of what you’ve said…

    A few people disagree loudly with their boss and the company looks to remove them. That happens and is expected in some places.

    Being promoted over above people again, it could be race related but how could you prove that? At the same time it could be this person was right for the job according to those making the decision. That absolutely may have nothing to do with race as well.
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