Post death help

Keep_pedalling

AccurateIce said:

Hi All, A brief outline of the situation

My father in-law recently passed away and because it was quicker than expected things never got sorted out properly.

His wife is still alive but sadly has dementia that has been getting progressively worse over the years. 

There are a number of issue that I would like some advice on where to steer the family to get the right advice/mediation.

1, The house was thought to have been put in a trust so any possible care home fees would not eat up the value of the house. However the company who set up the trust where a fly by night company than are now out of business. The documents they provided have incorrect address on one of them so they are not sure if they are valid,  where is the best place to get this information?

2, Sadly the mother in-law is unable to look after herself and 2 of the children are adamant they do not want her to go into a care home as this was their Dads wish. One of the children has offered to move back into the house to care for their Mum but this is were it starts getting messy. The house is too small for them to move in with their own family and would mean they would have to add an extension to the house to accommodate the family.  They are unwilling to get this extension added until there are certain stipulations in place. They want to get the house valued and split the value 3 ways in a 40/30/30 split between the children, arguing that the child moving in would have to uproot everything and sell their own home etc as well as taking over the care of their Mum. One of the children is not agreeable to this and their idea is to put the Mother in a 'good' home and sell off the family jewels so to speak.  So the question on this is where do they go from here?  

A couple of things that may be relevant. The reason for moving into the family home and not buying a bigger house (which would ultimately work out cheaper) is because the Mother in-law has lived in that house for 40+ years and is comfortable in the house, with her dementia they feel taking her away from her home would speed up her deterioration as she becomes even more confused.

One of the children has a lasting POA for Health/Welfare and also for Property & Financial affairs (This is one of the siblings who is in agreement with the proposal)

Any advice offered would be greatly appreciated. 

3, Is there any need for probate as everything will automatically transfer to his wife?

There is no way her attorneys can split the property between the children, the LPA does not give them that authority. It seems that either she owns the property outright or it has been placed into some dodgy trust, but either way there is a strong chance that eventually she will need residential care, and whether the house is in trust or not it may be need to fund that care. Putting it into trust will be treated as deliberate deprivation of assets however long ago it took place.

AccurateIce

@Marcon Thank you for the link, After checking with company and doing a Land registry search it seems this never actually happened. 

nanapop1977

Does MIL have "capacity" to make informed choices/decisions? Despite a diagnosis of dementia, she may well be legally considered capable of expressing her wishes with regard to her care (and her Health & Welfare POA would not, as yet, have authority to act in her best interest). Has she specified her wishes in her H&W LPA? Have the family asked her recently what care arrangements she would like? It may not be possible to provide her ideal scenario given her current care needs, but maybe live-in (paid) carers might be an option? Or she might be quite happy to be looked after in a care home if the subject is raised sensitively?.
A chat with her dementia team might be useful - they might be able to suggest care options the family haven't thought of  - and might also be able to offer some insight on on what the future holds for MIL, care needs wise. As dementia specialists,  they are very well informed as to local provision and options as well as being familiar with MILs condition. As previous posters have said, eventually most people with dementia need a skilled team of carers to look after them 24/7 unfortunately. Better IMO to sort out appropriate care now rather than wait until family members (however loving and well-meaning) can't cope.
The dementia team should also be able to initiate a short term emergency package of care given her main carer (FIL ) has passed away,  if that is what is needed now - might give you some breathing space while you explore longer term options?
Good luck with it all - never an easy path to navigate, even without financial considerations!

Keep_pedalling

nanapop1977 said:

Does MIL have "capacity" to make informed choices/decisions? Despite a diagnosis of dementia, she may well be legally considered capable of expressing her wishes with regard to her care (and her Health & Welfare POA would not, as yet, have authority to act in her best interest). Has she specified her wishes in her H&W LPA? Have the family asked her recently what care arrangements she would like? It may not be possible to provide her ideal scenario given her current care needs, but maybe live-in (paid) carers might be an option? Or she might be quite happy to be looked after in a care home if the subject is raised sensitively?.
A chat with her dementia team might be useful - they might be able to suggest care options the family haven't thought of  - and might also be able to offer some insight on on what the future holds for MIL, care needs wise. As dementia specialists,  they are very well informed as to local provision and options as well as being familiar with MILs condition. As previous posters have said, eventually most people with dementia need a skilled team of carers to look after them 24/7 unfortunately. Better IMO to sort out appropriate care now rather than wait until family members (however loving and well-meaning) can't cope.
The dementia team should also be able to initiate a short term emergency package of care given her main carer (FIL ) has passed away,  if that is what is needed now - might give you some breathing space while you explore longer term options?
Good luck with it all - never an easy path to navigate, even without financial considerations!

Some good points made, I was mightily relieved when my mother finally got a place in a residential home. She had few assets so had to be LA funded, which meant she had to wait for financial sign off leading to her being at home about 9 months longer than she really should have been. The strain on family cares is enormous, it can easily lead to major health problems for the career and a break down in relationships. 

I won’t put my own children in that position, they have been told in no uncertain terms that if I need care it is going to be provided by professionals, either in the home or residential if necessary. But we are lucky enough to be in a position to pay for it.

AccurateIce

MIL has stated every time she is asked that she does not want to go into a home and 2 of the children are backing her decision (one of those is the one with the LPA) There is a care package in place currently and that care package will increase as and when it is needed. They are under no illusion that a care home may well be needed in the latter stages but the plan is to allow her to stay at home for as long as possible. 
I think the next course of action is to get her capacity determined. 

RetSol

I think the next course of action is to get her capacity determined. 

That sounds right.  

Username03725

AccurateIce said:

MIL has stated every time she is asked that she does not want to go into a home and 2 of the children are backing her decision (one of those is the one with the LPA) There is a care package in place currently and that care package will increase as and when it is needed. They are under no illusion that a care home may well be needed in the latter stages but the plan is to allow her to stay at home for as long as possible. 
I think the next course of action is to get her capacity determined. 

The trouble with going along with the MIL's decision is that it's not just hers to make. Obviously she has the primary interest, but a large number of people will be directly affected by how care is provided if it's not in a care home. However well-intentioned all sides are it shouldn't be down to one elderly person with limited capacity to decide on the "best" means of providing care.

AccurateIce

Username03725 said:

AccurateIce said:

MIL has stated every time she is asked that she does not want to go into a home and 2 of the children are backing her decision (one of those is the one with the LPA) There is a care package in place currently and that care package will increase as and when it is needed. They are under no illusion that a care home may well be needed in the latter stages but the plan is to allow her to stay at home for as long as possible. 
I think the next course of action is to get her capacity determined. 

The trouble with going along with the MIL's decision is that it's not just hers to make. Obviously she has the primary interest, but a large number of people will be directly affected by how care is provided if it's not in a care home. However well-intentioned all sides are it shouldn't be down to one elderly person with limited capacity to decide on the "best" means of providing care.

It isn't just the MIL's decision it has been a majority family decision and the family moving in are all aware of how things are going to progress. 

tooldle

I have every sympathy with you, however in my opinion there is a great deal of difference between being aware of how things may progress and actually dealing with what results from that progression. To give a real life example. My mum was up at 3am on Saturday morning trying to break open the front door as she believed her father was outside waiting to collect her. Mum is normally quite calm and the behaviour was due to a UTI. Mum was very agitated and would not be distracted from her wish to get out. She set the fire alarm off multiple times through the morning. GP prescribed temazepan(?) and three doses were given through the day. It was gone 7pm before she started to take on board the reassurances being given to her and allowed herself to be taken up to her room I've never seen her that agitated and incoherent/paranoid. Sixteen hours straight, with a whole team of staff trying different approaches. As much as i love my mum, i wouldn't put my own family through this. The staff involved were drained, and they have the skills and experience.

gettingtheresometime

Just my 2 pennies worth - if the house will need an extension, which will be an extension to an extension, have you considered the hassle of getting planning permission ? Are there likely to be objections?