When is a "Final Bill" not a "Final Bill"?

Reed_Richards

Executors sometimes place newspaper notices seeking unidentified debtors against an estate.  If such a notice is placed it seems to be accepted that two months is a suitable time to wait so if nobody comes forward the estate can then be distributed.  In this instance you have a creditor that was known to you but who changed their mind as the the amount of the debt after 3 months.  If you have already distributed the estate I think it is fair to say to the creditor, the Energy Provider in this instance, that they are too late.  You had already asked them for a "Final Bill" and paid it.  You have done everything that could reasonably be asked of you so cannot be held personally liable.  However I say this without any legal expertise whatsoever.  

matelodave

You have several options - pay up and thats the end of the matter.
Pay up and then get the other beneficeries to chip in and put up with the aggro of collecting it (if they balk at it - which they shouldn't)
Challenge the bill and take it to the ombudsman with all the aggro that that entails and even then you might not get the result that you want.

It really depend on how much more stress and aggro you want to deal with. When I sorted out my Mum's estate I kept back several thousand to take into accout any miss-billing and some reviews that DWP insisted on and then only paid out the last bit when everything was all done and dusted.

As far as I was concerned, I was the executor and they just had to wait until it was sorted to my satisfaction as I would have been liable for any anomalies that arose in the future.

[Deleted User]

Reed_Richards said:

Executors sometimes place newspaper notices seeking unidentified debtors against an estate.  If such a notice is placed it seems to be accepted that two months is a suitable time to wait so if nobody comes forward the estate can then be distributed.  In this instance you have a creditor that was known to you but who changed their mind as the the amount of the debt after 3 months.  If you have already distributed the estate I think it is fair to say to the creditor, the Energy Provider in this instance, that they are too late.  You had already asked them for a "Final Bill" and paid it.  You have done everything that could reasonably be asked of you so cannot be held personally liable.  However I say this without any legal expertise whatsoever.  

You cannot just tell a creditor that they are too late. If a creditor feels that they have a case, then they have the legal right to persue it through a Court.  Indeed, Coop Legal Services state the following:

Quote: Disappointed family members or dependants have up to 6 months to make a claim after the Grant of Representation has been issued while the deceased’s creditors can potentially make a claim against the Personal Representative for up to 12 years after the death. Unquote

Whether or not that they will be successful is another matter but it is something that an Executor needs to take into account. For example, if the creditor wins and there are legal fees against the Estate then other factors come into play.

The judgement here for the Executor is whether the cost of legal advice; losing a Court case etc outweighs the cost of paying up.

macman

When was probate obtained, and when was the final distribution of the estate assets made? You said the bill was received '3 months later'. Later than what? 3 months after the sale completed? If so, I'd be surprised if the estate was completely wound up that quickly. The supplier is allowed up to 6 weeks to final bill after closure of the account.
The supplier is perfectly at liberty to rebill you after the 'final' bill is sent, but they can't recover estate assets if they no longer exist. However, I'd suggest that you have been rather too hasty in carrying out the final distribution, which makes you liable as executor.

JTBasketman

Thank you all for your input, all of which has been gratefully received and considered. I have drawn the following conclusions:

JTBasketman said:

My main question is: Is this correct procedure for an Energy Provider??

The answer appears to be 'yes'. Previously I have not had any experience of 'Revised Final Bills' for anything. It just does not sit well in my head which has a basic knowledge of English Language, legal matters, logic, and fair play. Surely if a bill can be subject to revision then it would not be called 'Final'. Hopefully when Leicester win the FA Cup Final, it will not be subject to revision.
My other query was:

JTBasketman said:

Can they keep issuing "Revised Final Bills" as they please, or is there some restriction on how many they can issue and how long the time period is?

Although it appears that the deceased’s creditors can potentially make a claims for up to 12 years after the death, it was more the potential of the repeated recalculation by an Electricity Provider of their own Final Bill, that I was querying. I would guess from the comments that the answer that would be again 'yes', but probably worth challenging on any more revisions.
I will therefore probably pay this one and try to carefully recover a portion of it from other benefactors.

So in summary: 

qu:  When is a "Final Bill" not a "Final Bill"?

ans: When it issued by an energy provider, who can't do their sums correctly.

As they say, live and learn

Reed_Richards

[Deleted User] said:

Reed_Richards said:

Executors sometimes place newspaper notices seeking unidentified debtors against an estate.  If such a notice is placed it seems to be accepted that two months is a suitable time to wait so if nobody comes forward the estate can then be distributed.  In this instance you have a creditor that was known to you but who changed their mind as the the amount of the debt after 3 months.  If you have already distributed the estate I think it is fair to say to the creditor, the Energy Provider in this instance, that they are too late.  You had already asked them for a "Final Bill" and paid it.  You have done everything that could reasonably be asked of you so cannot be held personally liable.  However I say this without any legal expertise whatsoever.  

You cannot just tell a creditor that they are too late. If a creditor feels that they have a case, then they have the legal right to persue it through a Court.  Indeed, Coop Legal Services state the following:

Quote: Disappointed family members or dependants have up to 6 months to make a claim after the Grant of Representation has been issued while the deceased’s creditors can potentially make a claim against the Personal Representative for up to 12 years after the death. Unquote

Whether or not that they will be successful is another matter but it is something that an Executor needs to take into account. For example, if the creditor wins and there are legal fees against the Estate then other factors come into play.

The judgement here for the Executor is whether the cost of legal advice; losing a Court case etc outweighs the cost of paying up.

I think as Personal Representative (executor) your duty is to act in good faith.  If you ask a creditor how much they are owed and pay then this amount you have surely discharged your duty.  It's certainly your duty to distribute the estate.  Therefore you can tell a creditor they are too late if they change their mind about how much is owed.  If the OP pays up now then they must do so out of their own pocket.        

Thrugelmir

JTBasketman said:

If so it creates problems. I know the other beneficiaries of the estate will not want to contribute to this, as it was very difficult to come to a final agreement for distribution the Estate with all the bills and reasons for them etc.

How much does it breakdown per beneficiary to contribute to settle the bill?   Were they also executors? 

[Deleted User]

Reed_Richards said:

Dolor said:

Reed_Richards said:

Executors sometimes place newspaper notices seeking unidentified debtors against an estate.  If such a notice is placed it seems to be accepted that two months is a suitable time to wait so if nobody comes forward the estate can then be distributed.  In this instance you have a creditor that was known to you but who changed their mind as the the amount of the debt after 3 months.  If you have already distributed the estate I think it is fair to say to the creditor, the Energy Provider in this instance, that they are too late.  You had already asked them for a "Final Bill" and paid it.  You have done everything that could reasonably be asked of you so cannot be held personally liable.  However I say this without any legal expertise whatsoever.  

You cannot just tell a creditor that they are too late. If a creditor feels that they have a case, then they have the legal right to persue it through a Court.  Indeed, Coop Legal Services state the following:

Quote: Disappointed family members or dependants have up to 6 months to make a claim after the Grant of Representation has been issued while the deceased’s creditors can potentially make a claim against the Personal Representative for up to 12 years after the death. Unquote

Whether or not that they will be successful is another matter but it is something that an Executor needs to take into account. For example, if the creditor wins and there are legal fees against the Estate then other factors come into play.

The judgement here for the Executor is whether the cost of legal advice; losing a Court case etc outweighs the cost of paying up.

I think as Personal Representative (executor) your duty is to act in good faith.  If you ask a creditor how much they are owed and pay then this amount you have surely discharged your duty.  It's certainly your duty to distribute the estate.  Therefore you can tell a creditor they are too late if they change their mind about how much is owed.  If the OP pays up now then they must do so out of their own pocket.        

Your PERSONAL opinion is irrelevant, as is mine. I suggest you read the last few paragraphs in this legal link below which explains that creditors have a legal right to pursue a claim against the personal representative once Probate has been granted. With respect, no one can tell a creditor anything. If they believe that they have a legitimate claim and it is upheld by a Court, then it is enforceable. Before coming to a judgement, the defendant has the right to put to the Court a detailed list of the actions that were taken before the Estate was distributed.

https://www.greenhalghkerr.com/articles/recoveries-deceased-estates/

That said, I would use the tools that are available. That is, I would make a complaint against the supplier for poor customer service and I would want to know how the revised bill has been calculated. If the revised bill is not withdrawn or changed, then I would threaten to go to The Ombudsman. However, it needs to be borne in mind that an EO Decision in favour of the supplier just adds weight to its claim.

rebel_2

Send the energy company a Subject Access Request, they will provide all the details on the account over a 6 year period (sometimes more). You have the final readings, you can create an Excel Spreadsheet, compare your working outs against the energy company's. That would be my starting point.  

Reed_Richards

[Deleted User] said:
Your PERSONAL opinion is irrelevant, as is mine..... 

I am in complete agreement there and that extends to our PERSONAL interpretations of the law surrounding this issue.  This is a legal matter and has nothing really to do with the fact that the creditor in this instance is an energy company.  To MY mind the legal issue is whether an estate creditor, having presented a bill and been paid, then has the legal right to demand to be paid more.  If so, for how long does this right extend?