NCP fine, C2C railway land. No appeal afforded me other than court.

Half_way

With this being a railway car park, have they called this a parking charge notice (PCN) or a Penalty charge notice (PCN) ?
this is of significance

Redx

If this were me , as a blue badge holder , if they issued a court claim to me , I would be raising a counter claim for say £300 or £500 under the EA 2010 as well as data protection etc

NCP are already in financial trouble

Dizzyflop

Fruitcake said:

If approaching the station along Acacia Drive with the entrance on the left, the entrance sign on the left hand fence would not be seen at all. It would be impossible to read it if approaching from the opposite direction, even if it was seen.

This comes down to whether the little yellow sign on the fence between the two disabled bays can be read from a car and therefore be capable of forming a contract with a motorist.  This assumes the car was driven in front first. If it was reversed in, there is no possibility the sign could be seen.

Having checked on the third party C2C website before travelling and finding that parking was free for disabled motorists, and finding no requirements for a disabled motorist to register a VRM to obtain free parking, it would be reasonable for said motorist to arrive, park, and walk away without checking other signs.

Making a disabled motorist own a smart 'phone and download and use an app that is not required by able bodied motorists is likely to be a breach of the EA 2010.

The concession to obtain free parking for disabled motorists is detailed on the white sign, and is a contract between the motorist and the TOC, which is C2C. NCP are not mentioned on teh white sign, although the sign is attached to the NCP sign.
The NCP Ts and Cs on the yellow signs are unreadable.

Thank you for that. Yes the car park was on the left from acacia drive. 
My post above obviously didnt load.
The disabled parking bays (all 2 of them) were occupied.

The exact bay i cannot remember. 
Their website states its fine to park in a normal bay if the disabled ones are occupied, there are no signs outside the restaurant other than another anpr sign in the distance. 

Dizzyflop

Half_way said:

With this being a railway car park, have they called this a parking charge notice (PCN) or a Penalty charge notice (PCN) ?
this is of significance

PARKING charge notice. 
As i said, i disclosed i was there, but they shouldnt take that as me admitting to being the driver. 
When i called i didnt know where it was for.  this is the first ever parking ticket, first ever debt collection letter ive recieved and was in a slight panic when calling- which on reading here is exactly what they want- but i dont remember saying anything they could take as something that i had specifically identified the driver. As i say, as blue badge holder i only have to be there.  

What annoys me is that had i not of needed to sit down to stop myself passing out, which is part of my disability i would have been under their 30 minites rule. I was sat down for a good 10 minutes just trying to recover from walking that distance and standing at the door to be dealt with. As per covid instructions!

Dizzyflop

Redx said:

If this were me , as a blue badge holder , if they issued a court claim to me , I would be raising a counter claim for say £300 or £500 under the EA 2010 as well as data protection etc

NCP are already in financial trouble

I read the post recently about ncp seeking lowered rates. Real shame.

This was my thought. Ive done what was within my ability. I am not well enough to walk to each sign in a car park and stand and read it, given that each sign seems to have different information and not full terms and conditions on it. I certainly wouldnt have been capable of standing in front of a sign for 10 plus minutes reading it, having walked to get to it, and be clear enough in thinking to understand all of the terms and conditions and decide if i should enter into a contract.

I pass out on standing. Im fine to drive as i am sat down, but not on standing. I gradually get tunnel vision, my mind gets foggy and i pass out. This can be gradual enough to be counter acted, or so fast to be completely out of the blue. 
Hence why i went to the website. If you google thorpe bay train station car park the first 2 hits direct you to the site i saw. 
There is very little on that site to say please look elsewhere for more info, or these terms are not accurate, please see the t&cs in the car park. https://www.ncp.co.uk/find-a-car-park/car-parks/thorpe-bay-station-c2c/

Dizzyflop

this is the first letter i received.

They even say they have sent a letter before, but ive had no evidence given of it when i asked for such. No reference as to where the extra £60 scam has come from either. 
 They said NCP sent 2 letters, but only evidenced this one in pdf to me
definately not a penalty notice. 

Ive looked on the google streetview to find a bylaws sign. The only thing i can find remotely byelaws related is a red sign saying"warning do not tresspass on the railway penalty £1000". which is on the station entrance itself. 

I presume that in order to state categorically who the driver was, they would either need photographic or cctv evidence, or an admission?and an admission of being on site is not good enough as they would be assuming. 

I also presume Trace would have a transcript or recording of the call to clarify exactly what was said if they want to rely on such a call as me somehow naming the driver?
And i presume if there was any kind of supression, tampering or destruction of evidence they have, especially after one has asked for it is also still very illegal?!

Fruitcake

The NTK is non-PoFA compliant so it is incapable of holding the keeper liable.
According to paragraph 9 (2) (f) of the PoFA, the NTK must arrive no later than day 14, the date of the alleged event being day zero.
Date of receipt is assumed to be two working days after date of issue/sending, which is already after day 14 anyway.

In addition, it does not include the PoFA warning, so the scammers know it is non compliant.

You can either fight this as keeper using the PoFA, or the driver can fight this on unfair contract terms, EA breach. Both can fight it on inadequate signage, not the landowner, no standing to issue charges.

Identifying the driver will only occur if someone tells them who it was. Scammers don't have a database of up to date photos of every motorist in the country. They won't have used CCTV nor have access to facial recognition software. As for ANPR, well the clue is in, Number Plate Recognition. 

Dizzyflop

Fruitcake said:

The NTK is non-PoFA compliant so it is incapable of holding the keeper liable.
According to paragraph 9 (2) (f) of the PoFA, the NTK must arrive no later than day 14, the date of the alleged event being day zero.
Date of receipt is assumed to be two working days after date of issue/sending, which is already after day 14 anyway.

In addition, it does not include the PoFA warning, so the scammers know it is non compliant.

You can either fight this as keeper using the PoFA, or the driver can fight this on unfair contract terms, EA breach. Both can fight it on inadequate signage, not the landowner, no standing to issue charges.

Identifying the driver will only occur if someone tells them who it was. Scammers don't have a database of up to date photos of every motorist in the country. They won't have used CCTV nor have access to facial recognition software. As for ANPR, well the clue is in, Number Plate Recognition. 

Thanks Fruitcake, thats pretty much what i thought, and what i was trying to say. 
Its my first time on this pcn merry go round, but the lack of appeal afforded to me and that id checked beforehand made me look on the web to find how to fight it. 
Im currently in the process of drafting a letter to the Managing director of C2C railways and will cc my MP in- giving him a more detailed complaint about this and  PPCs to follow up.
despite living 90 miles away from where it happened i presume my local MP can still help with this or at least push it in parliament again.

Can i post the draft here?
Is the MD of c2c trains high enough? They operate the station but As far as i know ita national rail land. 
The MD of c2c Its the only bigwig email of theirs i can find. 

Fruitcake

Complain to your MP but ask them to forward it to their colleague where the alleged event took place.

By all means show any redacted drafts here. There are no templates but there is a thread called Successful Complaints so you could see if there is anything there to help.

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what needs doing, which makes it much easier for the regulars to help.

The land will most likely belong either to the TOC or Network Rail. Go as high up the tree as you can find. I think there is a find a CEO website, so it would be an idea to see if that helps.

Dizzyflop

Fruitcake said:

Complain to your MP but ask them to forward it to their colleague where the alleged event took place.

By all means show any redacted drafts here. There are no templates but there is a thread called Successful Complaints so you could see if there is anything there to help.

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what needs doing, which makes it much easier for the regulars to help.

The land will most likely belong either to the TOC or Network Rail.

Thank you, your help is much appreciated.
I have read alot about this on here over the past week and odd thread over the past month.
 This site is a gold mine of information and knowledge.