NCP fine, C2C railway land. No appeal afforded me other than court.

Dizzyflop

Hi there, il try and keep this as succint as possible. Ive read around the site as much as possible, including newbies. 

 2nd August 2020 i went onto the thorpe bay train station car park website to check parking. It states disabled parking is free- tariffs for all else. No terms and conditions, nothing saying check signage.

As a disabled person this is always best practice given i cannot stand for long and have very restricted mobility. *As a disabled person to use the badge i have to be in the car, but dont have to be driving.* i am Registered Keeper
My blue badge is permanently affixed on display in the bottom left hand corner of my windscreen. 

The car was parked in the carpark 2nd august 2020 with a notable lack of clear signs available to read from inside the car, or without the car having to stop on the corner of the road and at a 90 degree angle to the cars direction.
I went to a restaurant attached to the train station to make an equiry. This included a period of having to sit down to recover from the short walk from the car.
The car was photo'd on entry and exit and a total time of 31minutes 55 seconds recorded. 

Fast forward to late December 2020 and a letter from Trace recovery for £160 arrived. The first i had heard of any PCN. 
I called them to enquire what this was for as it was unclear on the letter. 
*I do not remember all of the call but do remember stating "i was there" and that my blue badge was always on display and disabled parking free* 

I was told on the phone that i had to register my disabled badge with c2c before parking- (something not on their website) and that i had been given 2 letters by NCP previous to Trace's demand letter. 
I asked for more information and was given an email address to contact. 

I emailed trace and asked for Car park signs, number, sign location, dates, times, parking tariiffs, details, copies of all corespondance and any other proof relevant to make a response shortly after the call. 

In march 2021 i finally received a reply with 5 blurry photos of signs, a copy of one letter from NCP which was NTK  dated 19th august and an email saying i had 7 days to pay, appeals process is closed unless i go to county court and they wont correspond with me further. 
I asked for details of how this gets to court and was ignored. 

Last week, BW legal have sent initial letters asking for payment. Not a LBCC yet, but its clearly heading that way. 

I have since contacted c2c and asked for clarification on their blue badge registration and had confirmation this has to happen before parking. 
I have also found their t&cs which state parking for under 30 mins is free. 
The normal tarrif to park a car all day would have been £3.10. 
NCP's PCN is for £100. 

After reading through this forum, i think i have a good case. 
I have not yet contacted the land owner- whom "whoownsengland" have as national rail. I am unsure If should email NR, C2C who manage the station, and or the restaurant, and cant find any template letter here for landowner letters. 

Should a landowner letter be as succint as possible or spell out the case? 

The case i see is thus:

*Railway land and over 6 months so no risk of prosecution and no need to identify driver via pofa. i do not think what i said on the phone could be construed as me stating i was driving, given to park with a bluebadge the holder had to be present and the one using the badge. I admitted i was there. 

*Signage awful- under Beavis, unreadable from inside the car, contract is entered into upon parking, so no contract.
 Signs partially obscured by lamp posts. Day was sunny and signs glossy so even less readable.
Website states nothing of the sort and signage woefully inadequate. 
C2c state bluebadge registration has to happen before parking yet this is not on their parking website, nor eligible on the signs before parking.

*£60 handling fee swindle by Trace recovery

*Debt wholly disproportionate to actual losses given parking was free for 30 mins, an entire days parking is £3.10 and time the car was between entry and exit is 1.55 mins

*PCN NTK never received (provided by trace in december) was dated 17 days after the event. Non pofa compliant

Other possible factors-
*no appeal afforded me
*Case for discrimination of disabled patrons
* only partial evidence given ie apparently NCP sent 2 letters and i was only given evidence of 1. 
*no photos of car actually parked, just entry and exit. 

If anyone could give me an idea of what to include in the landowners letter and if NR is best to contact regarding this, that would be most appreciated. 

I will be drafting a defence this week,  and a formal SAR request to have ready for when the LBCC comes. 
Obviously the above has been kept to minimum on points that you are all well versed in for speed and ease of reading.
The sites templates with exact cases and rulings will be included in my defence not the vague points above. 

Am i on the right track?
Any other help gratefully received.
Thanks.

Fruitcake

Itis not a fine.

Are you the registered keeper, is the V5C up to date, and have you moved since the date of the alleged event? Don't assume. Go and look at the V5C.
First of all, the blue badge scheme does not apply on private land, but it is a good indication that an occupant of the car has a disability. ANPR scameras of course can't see any type of badge, permit, or ticket.

The contract to park is the signage at the car park. There should be repeater signs visible from a car parked in a disabled space so a disabled driver or passenger can read them without having to leave the vehicle.
If the signs in the car park stated registration to obtain free parking is a requirement, it must be clear and obvious, and repeated on the signs visible from a disable bay.

Making a disabled person with protected characteristics as defined by the Equality Act 2010 do something that an able bodied person without protected characterisitcs is a breach of said Act.

Railway byelaws can only be enforced in a Magistrate's Court within six months. The driver can, and the owner may be liable. The keeper can never be held liable under byelaws. However, unless the NTK says different, the scammers will be claiming this is a breach of contract, not a byelaws offence. 

Definitely complain to the landowner and see if the cafe manager can help.

Get pics of the site and signage.

Have a look at Google Streetview (GSV) to see if photos from around the time of the alleged event are of any help.
Please tell us the precise location as the site may have cropped up here before.

D_P_Dance

1. Have you complained to your MP?

Fruitcake

Is this where the car was parked? The signage is terrible. All in tiny font, none visible from those two disabled bays let alone anything readable about having to register first.



Not everyone has a smart 'phone, or can get a 'phone signal 100% of the time.

Dizzyflop

Thanks both for the replies. 
Yes im RK, and after reading about needing the V5 for SAR, and not being able to find mine i ordered a new one which arrived 3 minutes ago. Its upto date and no i havent moved. 

Not complained to MP yet, but he is on the ball and will be next after Landowner letter. 

Bluebadge may not be readable on ANPR, but it IS visible in their photo. 

Signage on entry sat in car woeful- 
Disabled bay signage unreadable from inside car and partially obscured by a lamp post in one bay. 

  This is the sign that mentions registration is needed, 


 this is the same sign  in context of size. It is also on the entrance sign.

There is to my knowledge no way to register for disabled parking on the ticket machine. Machine that is not clear its a ticket machine. 

Dizzyflop

Entrance sign whilst stood on the pavement in front of it.

Dizzyflop

Fruitcake said:

Is this where the car was parked? The signage is terrible. All in tiny font, none visible from those two disabled bays let alone anything readable about having to register first.



Not everyone has a smart 'phone, or can get a 'phone signal 100% of the time.

 My phone was actually suffering from not charging at the time. Its now a different phone but when i went to take the photos i had very little signal. 

Dizzyflop

Grainy picture due to cropping of the car and photo taken from a pdf, but blue bladge visible in windscreen on anpr. As i said, it lives there. 

Redx

There is no legal requirement to carry or use a phone !! So parking companies cannot insist on it or expect it

Those signs etc are appalling and fail lord Dennings red hand rule

How and why do they believe that they can have the blue badge writing in such tiny font ??

There should be no need to register with the TOC , it's an onerous term and condition

Dizzyflop

Redx said:

There is no legal requirement to carry or use a phone !! So parking companies cannot insist on it or expect it

Those signs etc are appalling and fail lord Dennings red hand rule

How and why do they believe that they can have the blue badge writing in such tiny font ??

There should be no need to register with the TOC , it's an onerous term and condition

Thats one id forgotten. Thank you. It certainly is not at all clear.
Lord denning is now on the list. 

The only other signs there regarding parking are two that are 6ft up in the air. My disabilty would rule any chance of reading this out completely. 
 

They did a nice clear job of their ANPR sign as you drive in though. The only one that is readable from inside the car without contorting or looking away from the road. 

Fruitcake

If approaching the station along Acacia Drive with the entrance on the left, the entrance sign on the left hand fence would not be seen at all. It would be impossible to read it if approaching from the opposite direction, even if it was seen.

This comes down to whether the little yellow sign on the fence between the two disabled bays can be read from a car and therefore be capable of forming a contract with a motorist.  This assumes the car was driven in front first. If it was reversed in, there is no possibility the sign could be seen.

Having checked on the third party C2C website before travelling and finding that parking was free for disabled motorists, and finding no requirements for a disabled motorist to register a VRM to obtain free parking, it would be reasonable for said motorist to arrive, park, and leave the vehicle unattended without checking other signs.

Making a disabled motorist own a smart 'phone and download and use an app that is not required by able bodied motorists is likely to be a breach of the EA 2010.

The concession to obtain free parking for disabled motorists is detailed on the white sign, and is a contract between the motorist and the TOC, which is C2C. NCP are not mentioned on the white sign, although the sign is attached to the NCP sign.
The NCP Ts and Cs on the yellow signs are unreadable.

The signs are forbidding with regard to disabled motorists who do not have or display a blue badge (that is not applicable on private land).

ANPR scameras are prohibited for use in council and local authority car parks by the UK government because they are not fit for purpose. If the car park was properly managed by an attendant, they would be able to see a disabled badge and therefore there would be no onerous requirement for the motorist to register their vehicle.

This is not relevant land therefore the keeper cannot be held liable because the PoFA, the law, says so. This of course does not apply if the driver has been identified.