Faulty car sold by a private seller I suspect to be a dealer

davedelaney

I was hoping someone could provide some advice.

My partner needed a second car for a cheap runaround and I saw a 2009 Citroen advertised on Gumtree for £550. The seller advised of some issues with the car which were understandable, and mentioned that he thought the car might need a new alternator as warning lights went "on and off" but didn't affect the drive itself. Unfortunately it seems that's not the case. The car seems to be mechanically fine, but all the warning lights stay on persistently and the speedometer doesn't work at all. After taking it to a garage, they advise a repair is uneconomical. 

I took screenshots of the advertisement on Gumtree which stated it had full service history, which wasn't the case at all, and that it was 'very reliable'.

He advised he was going to change the battery on the car on the day of purchase to see if that alleviated the lights issue, but it hadn't. I bought it from a house, and I went inside to do the exchange, so he certainly lived there (or knew someone who lived there). 

Typically I know buying from a private seller is caveat emptor, however upon taking any final bits out of the car, he handed over a piece of paper which he said was the receipt for the new battery. I took a closer look and noticed it was invoiced to a limited company - a quick check noted this limited company is a notorious second hand car dealer in the area (usually cars that are more pricey).

On the receipt I'd made for him to fill out, he said he'd put down his "dad's" details as he claimed he was the owner of the car. I suspect it wasn't his dad's, and that it was taken as a cheap part exchange and he'd be the middleman with no paperwork attached directly to him. That's pure speculation however.

I pulled the title deed for the house in case I could match the name of the director of the limited company to him, but unfortunately it doesn't.

Ultimately I'll have to take this as a £550 lesson, however I was wondering if I potentially had any recourse with the limited evidence I have?

Thank you.

jimjames

davedelaney said:

I was hoping someone could provide some advice.

My partner needed a second car for a cheap runaround and I saw a 2009 Citroen advertised on Gumtree for £550. The seller advised of some issues with the car which were understandable, and mentioned that he thought the car might need a new alternator as warning lights went "on and off" but didn't affect the drive itself. Unfortunately it seems that's not the case. The car seems to be mechanically fine, but all the warning lights stay on persistently and the speedometer doesn't work at all. After taking it to a garage, they advise a repair is uneconomical. 

Difficult one. He said the warning lights didnt affect the drive, you say that isnt the case but then seem to confirm that he was correct in that it's mechanically fine.

Did you spot the speedo not working on the test drive? What have the garage said the actual fault is?

From your info it does sound like it wasn't his car. What did the V5 say about the keeper?

Grumpy_chap

12 yo £500 car.

Irrespective of private or dealer - expectations need to be tailored to reasonable for the age and condition of the car.  Based on the description, those expectations must be low.

Use the car for as long as you can get away with, don't spend anything on maintenance, and when it breaks, weigh it in for scrap.  You'll possibly get half the cost back.  If you make the car work for 3 months, it was still cheap motoring.

bartelbe

Grumpy_chap said:

12 yo £500 car.

Irrespective of private or dealer - expectations need to be tailored to reasonable for the age and condition of the car.  Based on the description, those expectations must be low.

Use the car for as long as you can get away with, don't spend anything on maintenance, and when it breaks, weigh it in for scrap.  You'll possibly get half the cost back.  If you make the car work for 3 months, it was still cheap motoring.

That is not how it works, the dealer has to declare any faults because the law assumes the dealer is an expert and therefore it is reasonable to expect them to have knowledge about what they are selling and if they miss something, tough. I know dealers don't like it but that is the law.

It does sound like the OP has been scammed by a dealer passing themselves off as a private seller to get rid of a car too knackered to sell legitimately. All I can suggest is reporting the matter to trading standard with any evidence you have. Sadly I think you will struggle to get anything back from such a fake private seller.

An old trick to flush out dealers was to ring up and ask about the car. If they asked which one, there was a good chance it was a dealer pretending to be a private seller.

AdrianC

bartelbe said:

That is not how it works, the dealer has to declare any faults because the law assumes the dealer is an expert and therefore it is reasonable to expect them to have knowledge about what they are selling and if they miss something, tough. I know dealers don't like it but that is the law.

Care to point to which bit of what law states that?

Herzlos

Google the phone number he used to see if there are multiple ads up hitting it, or just phone it from someone elses number and ask "Is the car still for sale?" If he says "What one?" he's a dealer, or you could pop into the dealership and see if he's there.

Once you've establish that he is a dealer you can always take the car back to the dealership, but I assume if he's going to lengths to hide being a dealer he won't be particularly helpful. What you do after that is up to you - ask him for a refund, report it to trading standards, take him to small claims or whatever.

He may just not want the hassle of a customer making noise about a £500 trade-in, and pay you back to get you to go away before another customer sees it.

jimjames

bartelbe said:

Grumpy_chap said:

12 yo £500 car.

Irrespective of private or dealer - expectations need to be tailored to reasonable for the age and condition of the car.  Based on the description, those expectations must be low.

Use the car for as long as you can get away with, don't spend anything on maintenance, and when it breaks, weigh it in for scrap.  You'll possibly get half the cost back.  If you make the car work for 3 months, it was still cheap motoring.

That is not how it works, the dealer has to declare any faults because the law assumes the dealer is an expert and therefore it is reasonable to expect them to have knowledge about what they are selling and if they miss something, tough. I know dealers don't like it but that is the law. 

You mean like the faults the OP had described to them?

AdrianC

"I bought a dirt cheap shed which I knew had problems... and it turns out to have problems. Can I get my money back?"

motorguy

davedelaney said:

I was hoping someone could provide some advice.

My partner needed a second car for a cheap runaround and I saw a 2009 Citroen advertised on Gumtree for £550. The seller advised of some issues with the car which were understandable, and mentioned that he thought the car might need a new alternator as warning lights went "on and off" but didn't affect the drive itself. Unfortunately it seems that's not the case. The car seems to be mechanically fine, but all the warning lights stay on persistently and the speedometer doesn't work at all. After taking it to a garage, they advise a repair is uneconomical. 

I took screenshots of the advertisement on Gumtree which stated it had full service history, which wasn't the case at all, and that it was 'very reliable'.

He advised he was going to change the battery on the car on the day of purchase to see if that alleviated the lights issue, but it hadn't. I bought it from a house, and I went inside to do the exchange, so he certainly lived there (or knew someone who lived there). 

Typically I know buying from a private seller is caveat emptor, however upon taking any final bits out of the car, he handed over a piece of paper which he said was the receipt for the new battery. I took a closer look and noticed it was invoiced to a limited company - a quick check noted this limited company is a notorious second hand car dealer in the area (usually cars that are more pricey).

On the receipt I'd made for him to fill out, he said he'd put down his "dad's" details as he claimed he was the owner of the car. I suspect it wasn't his dad's, and that it was taken as a cheap part exchange and he'd be the middleman with no paperwork attached directly to him. That's pure speculation however.

I pulled the title deed for the house in case I could match the name of the director of the limited company to him, but unfortunately it doesn't.

Ultimately I'll have to take this as a £550 lesson, however I was wondering if I potentially had any recourse with the limited evidence I have?

Thank you.

Old cheap cars can be a minefield even when theres no known issues / warning lights on.  One being sold with issues is another world of pain altogether.

Why would a replacement alternator be "uneconomical"?

Whats the issue with the speedo?  Was it not working on the test drive either?  Can only be one of several things, most of which are replaceable.

couriervanman

I take no test drive was done

Grumpy_chap

bartelbe said:

That is not how it works, the dealer has to declare any faults because the law assumes the dealer is an expert and therefore it is reasonable to expect them to have knowledge about what they are selling and if they miss something, tough. 

You mean like these:

davedelaney said:

The seller advised of some issues with the car which were understandable, and mentioned that he thought the car might need a new alternator as warning lights went "on and off" but didn't affect the drive itself. 

bartelbe said:

I know dealers don't like it but that is the law.

Which law please?

bartelbe said:

It does sound like the OP has been scammed by a dealer passing themselves off as a private seller to get rid of a car too knackered to sell legitimately. 

That does seem quite possible.

Regardless, reporting it to trading standards or anything else is very unlikely to get the OP any gain, but will just consume the OP and their stress - for a £500 12 yo car it is really not worth it.  There are inconsistencies in the ad the OP saw on Gumtree, but also inconsistencies in the OP's account, but with some faults evident at purchase, trying to say it was not a "reasonable expectation" on the purchase is very difficult to argue against.

The best the OP can do is get as much use and value out of the car as possible, then weigh it in.  Compared to a new Citroen C4 on PCP, £4k deposit and £250 monthly gets 6 k miles / year.  If the OP can get 3 months out of this used car, then that's a win of sorts.

In fact, the OP says

davedelaney said:

The car seems to be mechanically fine, but all the warning lights stay on persistently and the speedometer doesn't work at all. After taking it to a garage, they advise a repair is uneconomical. 

 The car might well run for ages, if the fault is purely electronic.  Quite possible if there is a damaged wring loom somewhere, or some damp got in.  The "no speedo" is problematic as I understand that means an MOT fail, so that is the maximum life of the car.