Offer accept on a 2 bed house. 2nd Bedroom is loft conversion(?) - No paperwork.

Sovorel

user1977 said:

Sovorel said:

I can confirm with some certainty that every house on that street has the same room in the loft layout. Which could just mean everyone converted their lofts obviously... But I spoke to the neighbour who confirmed they have a loft room. And I've seen a house that sold on this street which has the same room in the loft. And I can see the houses have the same windows in the roof like this one does.

If they actually all look identical (rather than it being coincidence that they've all since had differing loft conversions) then surely that suggests it's part of the original construction? What made you think it was a conversion in the first place?

Give us a link to the property and we can have a more educated guess about what's going on.

Because I am new here, I'm apparently not allowed to post links... 

The other property that sold last August, a few doors down on the same street. The loft rooms aren't identical, the stairway up to the room in the second property isn't behind a wall, whereas it *is* behind a wall in the one I'm potentially buying. 

I assumed it was a loft conversion, as I had never heard of houses being built rooms with in the loft before. No other reason for my assumption. 

AdrianC

Sovorel said:

user1977 said:

Sovorel said:

I can confirm with some certainty that every house on that street has the same room in the loft layout. Which could just mean everyone converted their lofts obviously... But I spoke to the neighbour who confirmed they have a loft room. And I've seen a house that sold on this street which has the same room in the loft. And I can see the houses have the same windows in the roof like this one does.

If they actually all look identical (rather than it being coincidence that they've all since had differing loft conversions) then surely that suggests it's part of the original construction? What made you think it was a conversion in the first place?

Give us a link to the property and we can have a more educated guess about what's going on.

Because I am new here, I'm apparently not allowed to post links... 

The other property that sold last August, a few doors down on the same street. The loft rooms aren't identical, the stairway up to the room in the second property isn't behind a wall, whereas it *is* behind a wall in the one I'm potentially buying. 

I assumed it was a loft conversion, as I had never heard of houses being built rooms with in the loft before. No other reason for my assumption. 

Just give us the RM number, or postcode and price, we can figure it.

edgex

It's only in 'modern times' that these spaces were called 'lofts'.
Houses were either built with small roofs & spaces that were difficult/impossible to access, & not suitable for storage, or built with bigger roofs that had rooms in from the start, usually bedrooms.

Sovorel

Bad_Accountant said:

I hate this issue. We had a very similar problem with our current place. Loft is a bedroom. It looks original to the house and the other two houses built at the same time next door (2005) have identical loft rooms.

Our conveyancer wanted some kind of assurance from the sellers - I can't honestly remember WHY now. It was all explained at the time, something to do with the lender. The sellers had awful online conveyancers (Muve are terrible) who didn't understand the issue from what I could tell. It nearly delayed the sale so much we would have had to pull out.

Eventually the sellers said that it was original to the house and they hadn't changed anything, which seemed to solve the problem. They didn't provide any evidence, but it was enough for the conveyancer.

Maybe my solicitor was being picky and odd, who knows.

I'm currently sat in the loft ...

I'll be using the loft as an office as well, so any safety concerns don't bother me.

I just don't want to be stuck in a situation like you were, where a buyers solicitor is demanding paperwork that doesn't exist... 

Thank you for your response, its helpful. 

AdrianC

The OP's sent me the RM link. I won't share it here until they've confirmed they're happy for me to do so.

Looking at the pics, I'm not convinced it is original. The property is VERY definitely built pre-1974... I suspect Victorian - it's a row of worker's terraces in a mill-town suburb of Manchester. There's two rows of terraces, back-to-back with small back yards and an access road between them.

Yes, most properties (but not all if you take the entire pair of terraces) have a roof window in the back pitch. But they're all different sizes, and all different heights from the ridge. They're also mostly modern(ish) Velux-style, except for a couple of older dormers.

I'd expect the roof space to have had a lot more timberwork, too - but I'm no structural expert. Others (Dooz?) may be better placed to guess on that one. There's no real clue from the stairs - the banisters have all been replaced. There's similarities, there's differences in the way the neighbouring houses have been done, but the pics from previous sales aren't really optimal for direct comparisons.

BUT...
The previous sale pics of the OP's place, in 1999, clearly show it not to have been freshly converted then...

Section62

AdrianC said:

Looking at the pics, I'm not convinced it is original. The property is VERY definitely built pre-1974... I suspect Victorian - it's a row of worker's terraces in a mill-town suburb of Manchester. There's two rows of terraces, back-to-back with small back yards and an access road between them.

I'd be very suspicious of a Victorian worker's terrace claiming to have original rooms in the roof space.

As edgex describes, it is very much an era thing. Large Victorian and Edwardian homes typically had rooms built in the loft space to provide accommodation for the servants, when live-in servants were less common that trend died out and we went from the 1930's to 1990's with the roof space being used for a water tank and storage and not much else. Land was cheap and all the rooms needed could be provided over two floors. As-built attic rooms have come back into fashion since, mainly because developers figured out it helps them squeeze in that extra bedroom on the tiniest piece of land possible.

I wouldn't expect Victorian worker terraces to use three floors - families coped by having many children sleeping in one room, that was the norm, and if you could afford the luxury of some heat in the bedroom(s) then you concentrated that into the fewest number of rooms possible. Expanding your living space into the loft meant additional costs in construction and greater running costs - easily avoided by being willing/required to share rooms, and sometimes beds.

The amount of timber in the roofspace could vary depending on the owner. A couple of purlins and rafters over the top could do the job, especially if the width of the house wasn't much and the purlin span was therefore short.

Sovorel

So, I'm pretty much non the wiser at this point?

It's beginning to feel like my options are running out here... The EA (who said its original construction) said they'd "look into it"

All I'm really looking for is some kind of confirmation on paper, that I can provide to a future buyer, to ensure that this isn't a road block to me selling it.

I'm afraid of paying X amount now, only to find in a few years time that I can only sell for significantly less because of this issue.

And if this purchase falls through I don't know if I have the energy to go back to house hunting. This has been a long and drawn out process. And my buyer for my current place (an apartment) gave me a generous offer I'm afraid of losing.

It's a tough spot. 

maisie_cat

Section62 said:

AdrianC said:

Looking at the pics, I'm not convinced it is original. The property is VERY definitely built pre-1974... I suspect Victorian - it's a row of worker's terraces in a mill-town suburb of Manchester. There's two rows of terraces, back-to-back with small back yards and an access road between them.

I'd be very suspicious of a Victorian worker's terrace claiming to have original rooms in the roof space.

As edgex describes, it is very much an era thing. Large Victorian and Edwardian homes typically had rooms built in the loft space to provide accommodation for the servants, when live-in servants were less common that trend died out and we went from the 1930's to 1990's with the roof space being used for a water tank and storage and not much else. Land was cheap and all the rooms needed could be provided over two floors. As-built attic rooms have come back into fashion since, mainly because developers figured out it helps them squeeze in that extra bedroom on the tiniest piece of land possible.

I wouldn't expect Victorian worker terraces to use three floors - families coped by having many children sleeping in one room, that was the norm, and if you could afford the luxury of some heat in the bedroom(s) then you concentrated that into the fewest number of rooms possible. Expanding your living space into the loft meant additional costs in construction and greater running costs - easily avoided by being willing/required to share rooms, and sometimes beds.

The amount of timber in the roofspace could vary depending on the owner. A couple of purlins and rafters over the top could do the job, especially if the width of the house wasn't much and the purlin span was therefore short.

Actually I've seen several Victorian terraced houses with a little staircase to an open loft, over the years the original roof window may have been replaced with a larger window or a dormer created.
Our Victorian cottage was originally 2 cottages and the two original loft room velux windows are now different sizes but I'll bet my boots they were originally the same.
From what the OP says I suspect that there were originally loft rooms, and the external elements have simply changed over the years. the 2 answers that they received in response to the question are not necessarily contradictory. The work could easily have both been done prior to the current ownership and original.

[Deleted User]

Sovorel said:

So, I'm pretty much non the wiser at this point?

It's beginning to feel like my options are running out here... The EA (who said its original construction) said they'd "look into it"

All I'm really looking for is some kind of confirmation on paper, that I can provide to a future buyer, to ensure that this isn't a road block to me selling it.

I'm afraid of paying X amount now, only to find in a few years time that I can only sell for significantly less because of this issue.

And if this purchase falls through I don't know if I have the energy to go back to house hunting. This has been a long and drawn out process. And my buyer for my current place (an apartment) gave me a generous offer I'm afraid of losing.

It's a tough spot. 

FirstIy, if the attic room is an original feature you would have nothing to worry about. Secondly, if its a more recent addition, you have to ask how  your worst case scenario will come to pass. Vendors have to tell buyers everyday that these attic rooms are original. Who will prove otherwise. 

AdrianC

...and here's the link...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/90159130#/





...and pics from previous listing...

Which was March last year - the previous sale was 1999. So that was some kind of below-market-value, non-recorded sale, and it's had a lot of tarting in the last year.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=89865230&sale=55394721&country=england