Is it dismissal offence?

baza52

atothec said:

Mickey666 said:

F-F-S.  The world is going mad, 

On the face of it (assuming the OP's account is all there is to this whole incident) this should be worthy of a verbal warning at most.

Honesty, when I found out other day that they raised greaveance, I thought I will go to HR and report them for blaming me or using me as an excuse for them not to do they job, as that was exactly the words I said to them. 

so you want to report them for blaming you (as you are not a native) and presumably say they are being racist in their nature
Take responsibility for what you said, you are not the victim here

JamoLew

baza52 said:

pinkshoes said:

baza52 said:

im sorry but had they called you a refugee im sure they would have been dragged over the coals for it.
Being foreign yourself is not a get out of jail card and i would be pretty pd off if you had used to term to greet me with.
A white english person would be at fault if he called another white english worker a "N" word and quite rightly so.

The word refugee might not be offensive in itself but it would depend how you used that word and what context it was used in.
Lets remember racism is not just limited to a certain group of people it applies to every creed and colour.

I take it you also speak a second language that is not a parent-tongue?

The OP clearly meant no malice in his expression. 

We quite often use the expression "to seek refuge from the rain", which also comes from the term refugee. English language has SO many words, whereas other languages use the same word for various meanings.

By pulling the OP up on his use of this word is racist in itself against someone making an effort to use a second language. 

And you cannot even begin to compare the N word with the word refugee. OMG! Just no!

My ex was French and although he spoke English well, he often mixed up words or used them in the wrong context. That's how you learn!

yes, i also speak American, Australian and Canadian.
You cannot honestly say that the word refugee is not known to the OP and its current meaning. Op even gives a definition of it so i cannot see how it was used in the wrong context or that it was a lack of understanding of English.
Ignorance is not a defence and if the roles were reversed you would be sticking up for the person it was said to claiming racism.
It has been suggested that the 2 people complaining are being racist themselves by bringing it up.

It pretty obvious the word was used in jest but not everyone gets the same jokes and can take offence.
This is going to be about how the other people felt and if inappropriate language or words were used.


 

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

baza52

JamoLew said:

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

if this were the 2 other colleagues that had used the word to greet the OP the replies here would be completely different.
You cannot have 1 rule for 1 person and a different rule for another.
If they genuinely feel this was remotely aimed at them in a racist way then the OP should should receive the same outcome if the tables were turned.

OP, how would you have felt if you were greeted with the same word?

JamoLew

baza52 said:

JamoLew said:

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

if this were the 2 other colleagues that had used the word to greet the OP the replies here would be completely different.
You cannot have 1 rule for 1 person and a different rule for another.
If they genuinely feel this was remotely aimed at them in a racist way then the OP should should receive the same outcome if the tables were turned.

OP, how would you have felt if you were greeted with the same word?

There is absolutely no way on this planet that a none native calling a native a refugee could be classed as racist

The other way around - it absolutely could be construed that way

Context,relevance and intent are king

In their shoes, If someone addressed me as a refugee - my response would be !!!!!! are you on about, idiot- not running off complaining to management about it

Are you suggesting if someone referred to me (white,british) as a N or a P I should class that as them being racist towards me ??

Not a chance in hell would it even cross my mind - it has no relevance to me

atothec

baza52 said:

JamoLew said:

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

if this were the 2 other colleagues that had used the word to greet the OP the replies here would be completely different.
You cannot have 1 rule for 1 person and a different rule for another.
If they genuinely feel this was remotely aimed at them in a racist way then the OP should should receive the same outcome if the tables were turned.

OP, how would you have felt if you were greeted with the same word?

I get called foreigner by one guy laud and call him name too other gay performs sex act and cameras see it and yet I take it as a joke so basically I give and take jokes and 90% of people I work now that 

atothec

atothec said:

baza52 said:

JamoLew said:

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

if this were the 2 other colleagues that had used the word to greet the OP the replies here would be completely different.
You cannot have 1 rule for 1 person and a different rule for another.
If they genuinely feel this was remotely aimed at them in a racist way then the OP should should receive the same outcome if the tables were turned.

OP, how would you have felt if you were greeted with the same word?

I get called foreigner by one guy laud and call him name too other gay performs sex act and cameras see it and yet I take it as a joke so basically I give and take jokes and 90% of people I work now that 

Should say GUY not gay *

baza52

atothec said:

atothec said:

baza52 said:

JamoLew said:

This is the crux of it.

IMO the response is disproportionate to the "crime"

Just because someone takes offence does not equate to someone being offensive

Maybe an informal discussion and "education" would be a much more proportionate response in this case

For words and actions that we all would (I hope) agree ARE offensive then the proposed response would be called for - but not in this case

I think the 2 employees are trying to make some sort of point for whatever reason and the company is being woke 

People will be afraid to even say a word to other employees in that company for fear of being accused of being offensive - to which then people will probably complain about people not speaking to them --- very slippery slope

if this were the 2 other colleagues that had used the word to greet the OP the replies here would be completely different.
You cannot have 1 rule for 1 person and a different rule for another.
If they genuinely feel this was remotely aimed at them in a racist way then the OP should should receive the same outcome if the tables were turned.

OP, how would you have felt if you were greeted with the same word?

I get called foreigner by one guy laud and call him name too other gay performs sex act and cameras see it and yet I take it as a joke so basically I give and take jokes and 90% of people I work now that 

I get called foreigner by one guy laud and call him name too other gay performs sex act and cameras see it and yet I take it as a joke so basically I give and take jokes and 90% of people I work now that

Should say GUY not gay *

so you are used to calling others names.
Just because you think its a joke not everyone else will. Clearly 10% dont
You cannot justify your actions by what other people do or say. You are solely responsible for what you say and who you say it to.
You seem to be confirming this was said as a joke rather than a lack of understanding of the word, its meaning or the English language.

Manxman_in_exile

baza52 said:

pinkshoes said:

baza52 said:

im sorry but had they called you a refugee im sure they would have been dragged over the coals for it.
Being foreign yourself is not a get out of jail card and i would be pretty pd off if you had used to term to greet me with.
A white english person would be at fault if he called another white english worker a "N" word and quite rightly so.

The word refugee might not be offensive in itself but it would depend how you used that word and what context it was used in.
Lets remember racism is not just limited to a certain group of people it applies to every creed and colour.

I take it you also speak a second language that is not a parent-tongue?

The OP clearly meant no malice in his expression. 

We quite often use the expression "to seek refuge from the rain", which also comes from the term refugee. English language has SO many words, whereas other languages use the same word for various meanings.

By pulling the OP up on his use of this word is racist in itself against someone making an effort to use a second language. 

And you cannot even begin to compare the N word with the word refugee. OMG! Just no!

My ex was French and although he spoke English well, he often mixed up words or used them in the wrong context. That's how you learn!

yes, i also speak American, Australian and Canadian.
You cannot honestly say that the word refugee is not known to the OP and its current meaning. Op even gives a definition of it so i cannot see how it was used in the wrong context or that it was a lack of understanding of English.
... 

As someone who is au fait with the nuanced current meaning of words like "refugee", could you perhaps enlighten us as to what you mean when you say of another poster that they "cannot honestly say... "?

I mean, despite the plain and literal meaning of the words you have used, I don't suppose you actually mean explicitly or even implicitly to accuse pinkshoes of being dishonest - do you?

And should pinkshoes be offended even if you didn't mean to accuse them of dishonesty?

baza52

Manxman_in_exile said:

baza52 said:

pinkshoes said:

baza52 said:

im sorry but had they called you a refugee im sure they would have been dragged over the coals for it.
Being foreign yourself is not a get out of jail card and i would be pretty pd off if you had used to term to greet me with.
A white english person would be at fault if he called another white english worker a "N" word and quite rightly so.

The word refugee might not be offensive in itself but it would depend how you used that word and what context it was used in.
Lets remember racism is not just limited to a certain group of people it applies to every creed and colour.

I take it you also speak a second language that is not a parent-tongue?

The OP clearly meant no malice in his expression. 

We quite often use the expression "to seek refuge from the rain", which also comes from the term refugee. English language has SO many words, whereas other languages use the same word for various meanings.

By pulling the OP up on his use of this word is racist in itself against someone making an effort to use a second language. 

And you cannot even begin to compare the N word with the word refugee. OMG! Just no!

My ex was French and although he spoke English well, he often mixed up words or used them in the wrong context. That's how you learn!

yes, i also speak American, Australian and Canadian.
You cannot honestly say that the word refugee is not known to the OP and its current meaning. Op even gives a definition of it so i cannot see how it was used in the wrong context or that it was a lack of understanding of English.
... 

As someone who is au fait with the nuanced current meaning of words like "refugee", could you perhaps enlighten us as to what you mean when you say of another poster that they "cannot honestly say... "?

I mean, despite the plain and literal meaning of the words you have used, I don't suppose you actually mean explicitly or even implicitly to accuse pinkshoes of being dishonest - do you?

And should pinkshoes be offended even if you didn't mean to accuse them of dishonesty?

dont try and derail the thread.
The OP has made it perfectly clear they knew the meaning of the word and had used it in context.
The OP has also said that they would joke with other people and retaliate with "banter"
Im sure that "pinkshoes" may have a different outlook on this thread now the OP has posted that its not a one off time they have "banter" To honestly say something would suggest you are in full possession of facts and i dont think pinkshoes was at the time the comment was made.

Rather than offer me advise you would be better off offering it to the OP

Raspberry_Queen

Just to be clear, OP has taken responsibility for what he said, is willing to learn, and has expressed that he is sorry and didn't mean to upset anybody.

Given that the colleagues did take offense to a foreigner innocently using inappropriate language, the correct response from the company is for him to apologise, and receive guidance on acceptable use of language. I don't think those of you who think he is "not the victim" understand how serious this is: he is being threatened with dismissal for (debatably) saying the wrong thing. 

No one is claiming that he doesn't know what the word "refugee" means. Literal meanings of words are the easy part of a second language. The bit that is difficult - and takes many decades for an adult to learn - is the context, tone, subtleties, nuance, and underlying implications. 

For example, the joke he said may have been perfectly acceptable outside of work, or to a colleague he knows, or if he'd said it in a certain tone. The word refugee is not offensive or insulting. I have made glib comments including the word refugee myself: for example, when a gossip forum I was a member of went downhill, and there was a mass exodus to a rival forum, a lot of us made jokes (and received jokes) about being refugees from the old forum. 

What OP has struggled with is applying a joke in the correct context and to the right people. But how can a non-native person possibly know that something is unacceptable in certain circumstances? There are no hard and fast rules, it is not something that is taught and unfortunately can only be learned through experience. 

It's clear that he has learned through work that banter is a good way to bond, make friends and make people feel happy. Banter is hard enough for an English person to get right. It is a very difficult balance, and requires very good judgement of when and what is appropriate, and how the recipient will take it. Surely you must understand that this is a very easy mistake for him to make? Banter is also socially expected in many environments (much to the chagrin of HR).