Buyer beware rule means home buyers less protected than phone buyer

AMKin

I got a homebuyer's survey and from people I've consulted, no survey allows the surveyor to dig down to see what's happening underneath. The structural engineers mentioned that repair and maintenance would be prohibitively expensive and it is better to rebuild. Because this part of the build does not satisfy building regs, the assumption now is that there may be other defects that cannot be seen. For example, I now have rats in the walls of this same extension. So the assumption is that drainage wasn't done properly either. 
Understand that loss in value is recouped rebuilding, but that's now estimated to be about £45k, nearly 10% cost of the property. Not many people have that just sitting waiting to be used. 

AMKin

ProDave said:

What is below that beam that made tem build the extension like that?  A basement?

Normally you would dig continuous foundations suitable for the ground.

There is nothing but concrete pads underneath the beams and there was a build over agreement as sewers run verse by those concrete pads. We suspect that the previous owners wanted a quick and cheap extension to increase the value because they built and sold in a short amount of time.

AMKin

teachfast said:

I assume you've scrutinised TA6 to see if there is anything answered incorrectly?

Yes, the previous owner worked in property sales so he was well versed in saying bare minimum

AMKin

Apodemus said:

I have great sympathy for the situation you are in but I don't think this is correct:

AMKin said:

So far looking at around £76k value loss based on what I paid per sqm, plus cost of demolishing and rebuilding.

There is either a value loss plus cost of demolishing or there is a cost of demolishing and rebuilding, but not both.

Have your engineers explained why it is not possible to underpin and/or replace the defective support? It may be cheaper to demolish and rebuild, but surely it must be technically possible to rectify what is currently there?

What have your insurers said?

Thanks for this. I answered your post without quoting you. It would be prohibitively expensive to repair and maintain and because it is against building regs already, assumption is there are other issues that we cannot see. Also, underpinning needs to be declared in sale, then specialist insurance is required. Insurers said negligence of builders and or council is not covered.

BikingBud

Harsh but I assume you knew the extension had only been up a short while, did your surveyor know this?

Have you only recently found out about the build over agreement?
Was this queried as a specific area of concern when you commissioned the survey?
How big is the extension, does it require PP?
Who prepared and signed the plans off?
Did you review any submissions of plans or building approval before purchase? 

None of that really helps you though but may form the basis of an argument about what was disclosed and how.

Does your insurance include legal cover/advice?

theoretica

Buying, or selling, a home is a huge transaction - but usually both seller and buyer are private people.  So the largest transactions most people make in their life - and without the protection of the other party having commercial responsibilities.  But also while people usually buy first and sell later, most people do both in their life and will want balanced responsibility and protection on both sides of the transaction.

AMKin

Section62 said:

AMKin said:

Found out after completion that extension had major structural issues when checking drains. Council building regs never checked the steel beams supporting the entire extension, only the concrete it is sitting in and things above. The steels are badly rusted/crumbling and were not protected so been advised by 2 structural engineering firms to demolish and rebuild and I'm only 5 months in owning the house.

Does the hole in the pictures represent the full extent of the structural investigation?

If so, how was it concluded that the entire extension was supported on those beams?  If I were to take a guess based only on those pictures my first assumption would be that the builder has used steel beams as a lintel to bridge over a drain/sewer.

The quality of the work is appalling, and no doubt defective, but if the problem is limited to part of the extension then the repair might not need to be as extensive as suggested. Also the steel is clearly rusting, but is not 'crumbling'.

What was the 'checking drains' about? Was there a problem, and if so what was the conclusion? Are there damaged pipes, and if so, is it a public sewer?

Also, the neighbour's rain water downpipe discharging directly onto the ground in your direction is something of a red flag that would have made me hesitate to buy without having further investigation into the construction of your extension. Did your surveyor comment on that?

Hi, thanks for the above. Before purchase, the surveyor was aware of the extension being new and asked the solicitor to look into compliance. This was built under permitted development and building regs said no structural drawings have to be submitted where full plans are not submitted. It did have a certificate of completion signed off for some reason despite everyone who's seen these saying that shouldn't have happened, including building regs officers on the phone. The images were taken during an attempt to access the drains as I got rats in the walls within 3 weeks of moving in. We couldn't access them as it seems the drains and sewers were connected within the concrete posts. The structural engineer I believe took other photos in his report also. The neighbour downpipe was only spotted when we had to lift the fence. Somehow, the extension was built, the builders and the previous owners despite the fence being down, didn't flag to the neighbour to do anything about that. The neighbour has had to redirect that pipe as he also freaked out when he saw the condition of the steels. He said he never noticed them laying a proper foundation and his glass conservatory has a solid foundation. When I looked under, there was just dirt underneath the extension. It appears to be basically floating above a dirt floor until the foundation of the old house and the only thing we could see it sitting on were the steels set in concrete posts. The steels are quite rusted, I said crumbling because the drains guy poked it with a stick and chunks of powder just came off very easily. So dealing with what to do possibly and also how to get rid of rats in the extension walls. They must be coming from the sewers somehow and I suspect they never capped off the old soil pipe seeing how bad the rest of the job is. 

Apodemus

AMKin said:

Insurers said negligence of builders and or council is not covered.

I am stunned by that response from your insurers.

Section62

AMKin said:

The images were taken during an attempt to access the drains as I got rats in the walls within 3 weeks of moving in. We couldn't access them as it seems the drains and sewers were connected within the concrete posts.

So the drains/sewers are definitely underneath the extension?

AMKin said:

The structural engineer I believe took other photos in his report also.

You have a copy of the report, yes? If not you need to get them to give you a copy, and see exactly what they have investigated and found.

If they are basing their opinion solely on what can be seen in those drainage investigation holes then I wouldn't feel comfortable with the conclusion they have come to regarding the need to completely rebuild.

AMKin said:

The neighbour downpipe was only spotted when we had to lift the fence. Somehow, the extension was built, the builders and the previous owners despite the fence being down, didn't flag to the neighbour to do anything about that. The neighbour has had to redirect that pipe as he also freaked out when he saw the condition of the steels.

All the professionals involved in your extension should have seen that downpipe and recommended/taken action.

AMKin said:

When I looked under, there was just dirt underneath the extension. It appears to be basically floating above a dirt floor until the foundation of the old house and the only thing we could see it sitting on were the steels set in concrete posts.

In principle there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a properly supported reinforced concrete slab as a form of foundation. The question is whether the slab (if that is what it is) is properly supported and contains appropriate reinforcement. The void under the slab is also not intrinsically problematic, but it raises questions about how the slab was formed.

AMKin said:

The steels are quite rusted, I said crumbling because the drains guy poked it with a stick and chunks of powder just came off very easily.

Steel rusts, and the resulting surface does flake away quite easily. But it can take a very long time before the rust compromises the structural integrity of the member.

AMKin said:

So dealing with what to do possibly and also how to get rid of rats in the extension walls. They must be coming from the sewers somehow and I suspect they never capped off the old soil pipe seeing how bad the rest of the job is.

Rats also love living in voids under floors. They are usually warm and dry and far more comfortable than drains and sewers. It looks to me like the gap between your extension and the neighbour's provided the perfect entrance way into a cozy home under your floor.

Going forward, you need to get far more information about the structural condition of the extension and a full assessment of all the options. You can buy a lot of remedial work for £45k.

I suspect the biggest problem will be that the unusual construction method was used because the position of the drain/sewer ruled out conventional footings without the complication of getting the sewer/drain relocated. And the constraint of trying to do the job as PD meant that properly spanning over the sewer/drain was not possible.

Before you consider rebuilding you will need to establish whether the sewer/drain location was the cause of the design problem, and what can be done to solve it properly. There's a risk you will end up with a much smaller extension or the need to get planning consent for a design which is actually buildable. It is possible that remedial work on the existing structure might look cheap in comparison.

AMKin

Section62 said:

Rats also love living in voids under floors. They are usually warm and dry and far more comfortable than drains and sewers. It looks to me like the gap between your extension and the neighbour's provided the perfect entrance way into a cozy home under your floor.  

I'm a little confused. Maybe call me naive but pest damage is uninsurable in the UK and rats are a well known and expensive nuisance often coming out of sewers. Why is it OK to have floor voids then when this is a well known problem? 

I will look into the report for the photos as these were the ones I had on my phone.