Structural engineers costs

Mish_Mash

Hi 

I am looking for some consumer advice. I engaged a structural engineer to carry out some work for me on my kitchen extension. Costs were agreed at £2500+VAT. The contract stated that the engineer would advise of any additional costs/work and would seek prior agreement before doing the work. Inevitably there were changes and additional work. That is not in dispute. However the structural engineers behaviour was really appalling in terms of responding to emails/calls, never sought approval for additional work including queries raised directly by the architect (without my knowledge). He also never confirmed timescales for delivery of new work or provided cost estimates which caused significant stress on site as we had builders without work for 4 weeks and they threatened to walk off site (understandably).  

The  structural work completed in Sept last year and I have been chasing on a nearly daily basis for a view of costs so I can settle up. I have never received a call or email and have been tearing my hair out as he had also failed to provide the calculations for buildings control (who were threatening to terminate our application due to the delay). The engineer eventually came back to me in late Feb and the costs have increased significantly.  He now wants nearly 10k. 

I am not rich. I do want to settle up and pay for the work that was done but I feel that I am in a very difficult position as he hasn’t been transparent about the cost increases, he has afforded me no opportunity to accept or reject costs/additional work and he has now invoiced me for the work so I feel under pressure to pay even though I am really quite angry about his behaviour and the position I find myself in financially. 

Do I have a leg to stand on to reject his invoice based on their contract terms? I am thinking of making a counter offer. What happens if I don’t pay his invoice?

Any device?

grumbler

I would stick to the contract, possibly +£1K,  and let him chase me via a court. If what you say is true, IMO he has very slim chances.

Rosa_Damascena

Its easy for me to say but try not to stress. Approach this one with a cool head.

Then go through the whole trail in minutiae so you have evidence of all comms. Start tracking what you agreed to and what you didn't. Even if you didn't agree to something, it is implicit IF that calculation got you what you wanted in the end. The question is whether it is an additional piece of work outside of the contract.

What's your relationship with the architect like? Was it the architect that introduced you to this SE? And is he ISE regulated? https://www.istructe.org/find-an-engineer/

I have to say the price that SEs charge for a few sums - albeit ones that require significant expertise to generate - is galling, but £2.5k of SE costs for a kitchen extension..? Rising to £10k is TTP. If its been extra work because the SE didn't do what was asked of him originally then the cost of the remedial work should be his.

Doozergirl

What on earth did they do for £10k?! 

How did it end up going up by that much, from £2.5k.  What changed? 

Mish_Mash

Thanks all. The structure was complicated or so I understand (speaking as a layperson). It was a side return with all supporting walls knocked out, no supporting posts,  slimline steels embedded in the walls and ceiling so maximising head height and space. Even the builders said the work was complex.

There were a number of steels required and the steel fabricator required the engineer to produce a connections diagram, which had originally not been in scope. This document was then subject to several reviews with the steels company (liability considerations).  The engineer explained to me (post doing the work) that he also had to produce fabrication drawings in order to support the connections diagram. I challenged this as the steel company had already produced the fabrication diagrams but the engineer said that he needed to do his own. 

The architect had worked with the engineer before and had recommended him. The SE is professionally registered and from a very well respected company. I have spoken to the institute of structural engineers and they have confirmed that his behaviour is a significant breach of their code of conduct. There is nothing they can do legally but they can strip him of her accreditation which would affect his insurances and business. I would be hesitant to take such action.  

The architect agrees that the fees are excessively high and has supported me challenging him. There isn’t really any email evidence of anything. The engineer never spoke or contacted me directly. The changes detailed below were raised by the architect, some I was aware of, some I was not. Site meeting minutes are available and cover some aspects. I had expected the engineer to come back to me if costs were at risk (as per contract T&C’s. I do have evidence of my chasing him for a view of costs from last year through this year. 

In terms of changes, we had the following: 

1. Upstairs bathroom lintels required to allow for drainage to be rerouted and a chimney breast to be supported. 

2. Discussions re underfloor heating and floor level
3. Change from timber to aluminium windows (which affected the structural load calculations)
4. Lintel required for sitting and dining room opening
5. kitchen steels to be notched to allow for electric blinds to be installed in the ceiling. 

FaceHead

As above, £2.5k for the SE calcs for a side return extension is top end. It seems that once you'd gone with the architect's recommendation and accepted their top end quote they decided to take you for a ride. 

There's no dispute that you owe the 2.5k agreed. You also owe a bit more as the work exceeded the agreed scope. That 'bit' doesn't seem to be an additional 7.5k. 

I agree with grumbler that +1k seems fair, so give them the agreed 2.5k, and offer to give them an additional 1k as a goodwill gesture, as nothing above the 2.5k was agreed. They can then accept the extra 1k or send you their letter before action. 

Rosa_Damascena

Mish_Mash said:

Thanks all. The structure was complicated or so I understand (speaking as a layperson). It was a side return with all supporting walls knocked out, no supporting posts,  slimline steels embedded in the walls and ceiling so maximising head height and space. Even the builders said the work was complex.

There were a number of steels required and the steel fabricator required the engineer to produce a connections diagram, which had originally not been in scope. This document was then subject to several reviews with the steels company (liability considerations).  The engineer explained to me (post doing the work) that he also had to produce fabrication drawings in order to support the connections diagram. I challenged this as the steel company had already produced the fabrication diagrams but the engineer said that he needed to do his own. 

The architect had worked with the engineer before and had recommended him. The SE is professionally registered and from a very well respected company. I have spoken to the institute of structural engineers and they have confirmed that his behaviour is a significant breach of their code of conduct. There is nothing they can do legally but they can strip him of her accreditation which would affect his insurances and business. I would be hesitant to take such action.  

The architect agrees that the fees are excessively high and has supported me challenging him. There isn’t really any email evidence of anything. The engineer never spoke or contacted me directly. The changes detailed below were raised by the architect, some I was aware of, some I was not. Site meeting minutes are available and cover some aspects. I had expected the engineer to come back to me if costs were at risk (as per contract T&C’s. I do have evidence of my chasing him for a view of costs from last year through this year. 

In terms of changes, we had the following: 

1. Upstairs bathroom lintels required to allow for drainage to be rerouted and a chimney breast to be supported. 

2. Discussions re underfloor heating and floor level
3. Change from timber to aluminium windows (which affected the structural load calculations)
4. Lintel required for sitting and dining room opening
5. kitchen steels to be notched to allow for electric blinds to be installed in the ceiling. 

Your contract is with the individual or the company? You may get further talking to the organ grinder.

If your SE cannot demonstrate an additional £7.5k of work they can whistle. If you can't speak common sense with the SE then the ISE complaints procedure is your route. I'm no DIY-er but I know a thing or two about professional registration and no one is going to be striking anyone off in a hurry. Your SE will not be so stupid as to risk his current role or livelihood over an opportunistic invoice. Try your best to see things from his perspective but stand your ground: if the additional work wasn't agreed and priced then he is on weak ground.

weeg

I'm a structural engineer. Yup, that does sound complicated, so the original fee is probably justified. Insisting on doing your own fabrication drawings is unusual. Some jobs grow arms and legs, and some of those costs you pass on. But the others you can't. Liaising with arch shouldn't be billable, not should the steel drawings.

I think you're going to win your fight, but it could take a while if they decide to try the small claims court.

Mish_Mash

Rosa_Damascena said:

Mish_Mash said:

Thanks all. The structure was complicated or so I understand (speaking as a layperson). It was a side return with all supporting walls knocked out, no supporting posts,  slimline steels embedded in the walls and ceiling so maximising head height and space. Even the builders said the work was complex.

There were a number of steels required and the steel fabricator required the engineer to produce a connections diagram, which had originally not been in scope. This document was then subject to several reviews with the steels company (liability considerations).  The engineer explained to me (post doing the work) that he also had to produce fabrication drawings in order to support the connections diagram. I challenged this as the steel company had already produced the fabrication diagrams but the engineer said that he needed to do his own. 

The architect had worked with the engineer before and had recommended him. The SE is professionally registered and from a very well respected company. I have spoken to the institute of structural engineers and they have confirmed that his behaviour is a significant breach of their code of conduct. There is nothing they can do legally but they can strip him of her accreditation which would affect his insurances and business. I would be hesitant to take such action.  

The architect agrees that the fees are excessively high and has supported me challenging him. There isn’t really any email evidence of anything. The engineer never spoke or contacted me directly. The changes detailed below were raised by the architect, some I was aware of, some I was not. Site meeting minutes are available and cover some aspects. I had expected the engineer to come back to me if costs were at risk (as per contract T&C’s. I do have evidence of my chasing him for a view of costs from last year through this year. 

In terms of changes, we had the following: 

1. Upstairs bathroom lintels required to allow for drainage to be rerouted and a chimney breast to be supported. 

2. Discussions re underfloor heating and floor level
3. Change from timber to aluminium windows (which affected the structural load calculations)
4. Lintel required for sitting and dining room opening
5. kitchen steels to be notched to allow for electric blinds to be installed in the ceiling. 

Your contract is with the individual or the company? You may get further talking to the organ grinder.

If your SE cannot demonstrate an additional £7.5k of work they can whistle. If you can't speak common sense with the SE then the ISE complaints procedure is your route. I'm no DIY-er but I know a thing or two about professional registration and no one is going to be striking anyone off in a hurry. Your SE will not be so stupid as to risk his current role or livelihood over an opportunistic invoice. Try your best to see things from his perspective but stand your ground: if the additional work wasn't agreed and priced then he is on weak ground.

Thank you for your response. The engineer is the owner of the company so I am effectively talking to the organ grinder. I think the issue here is that he was so busy he just delegated the work to his team and no one contacted me to give me visibility of new work and associated costs and to ask for agreement. The contract says that they would proactively contact me should original costs look to be exceeded. 

There was work done but I feel like I have no idea whether what was done was reasonable or excessive. 

The engineer himself is a good guy and I do trust him but I think he lost control of his work commitments which resulted in an unprofessional approach to this job.

I have been chasing since august/sept last year for a breakdown of work and he has ignored each and every email and phone call. He only provided a high level summary in Feb. My architect is also aghast at the level of unprofessionalism and said that he should as a minimum reduce costs due to poor service provided. 

I have 7 days now to pay the invoice. I have chased again today for the breakdown of costs and to advise that I cannot progress payment without this. 

If I did make an offer of payment and he decided that this wasn’t sufficient and moved to take this to the small claims court, what would this mean for me? Would I need to hire a lawyer? Would I potentially need to pay his costs? Could I be credit blacklisted? 


Part of me wants to withhold some of the payment on principle, the other part just wants this whole saga to be over. It’s been a very difficult build with COVID and significant family illnesses which have added to the stress at this time. 

Rosa_Damascena

I think you need to write formally as a pre-emptive strike to indicate that the additional costs were not agreed. This chap is TTP, let him learn how to manage his team of errants.