Possessory title

Wendysharp44

Hi first time on here but in a dilemma.. any help would be appreciated. My partner bought a property in sept 2018 .. he paid extra for a quick conveyance, and looking back on correspondence a trainee Sol did the conveyance. In March 2020 he had a final letter from the Sol advising finally all had been registered and for him to check the title plan. He doesn’t check things and knows nothing about conveyancing. I noticed his property held two titles as his front drive had been adopted by previous owner in the January before she sold it to him. It is a blocked paved drive and he had no idea as the estate agents plan just showed the whole of his drive. We contacted his Sol immediately and said there’s a problem. She got file back and advised the sellers sols had gone bump. Tr1s were sent to us and sellers, after we supplied their address. We did ours they did theirs but they didn’t supply ID. Since then nearly a year we have been trying constantly to get them to supply ID which still hasn’t happened.. we are confused as to whether the solicitors acting for my partner should have noticed or told him he was buying a property with a possessory title, as they are blaming him for not checking small title plan they sent him, and what happens if the sellers do not supply the ID. We put a complaint in to the sols, over two months ago and they haven’t answered it... we can not get any indemnity insurance as it’s not in his name and have also learnt that can’t make it absolute for another 9 years. Also properties with possessory titles can be difficult to sell on going forward!!

princeofpounds

If you use paragraphs you will improve your chances of getting good replies. A wall of text is very hard to read.

You should also try hard to improve the clarity of your post - at the moment it leaves us guessing about a number of things.

I presume that the possessory part of the title is actually the driveway title, given you talk about it specifically?

Possessory title is not absolute, but it can often be very low risk. Yes, the solicitor should have notified you that it was possessory title and given you a brief explanation of what that means. They should also have checked why it was possessory rather than absolute. Possessory title should not be that hard to sell if indemnity insurance is available. 

Then you appear to have this separate issue around the TR1 form and IDs... You seem to imply that the TR1 forms have been physically completed, completion has taken place in terms of cash and property being handed over, but no registration has occurred because the vendors never provided ID? The vendors also had their own solicitor go bust during the transaction?

Please describe exactly where you are at in the process and the sequence of what happened and what has not happened, to the best of your knowledge.

Is there a mortgage lender involved?

It sounds like an irregular mess. If your solicitor has not responded inline with their complaints policy, then you should tell them that you are considering involving the Legal Ombudsman and/or the Solicitors' Regulation Authority (the two institutions work together - see here for more details https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/). The SRA should also take over assigning the work from the vendor's bust solicitor to other solicitors, but that is not necessarily for you to sort out.

Wendysharp44

sorry yes I will try to explain in a clearer manner. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.

My partner in 2018 was going through a divorce and he had to sell his property, divide the funds and buy another. The solicitor acting for his divorce suggested a partner in the firm to do the conveyancing. By the looks of historic letters 2018 she was a trainee solicitor.

It seems this solicitor acted in the sale of his old property, purchase of new property and acted in the small mortgage he acquired. Exchange and completion took place in 5 days and he paid extra for that. He also had to purchase 3 indemnity policies and paid for all; one for the boiler, one for the fact the seller had blocked paved the drive which was  going against the covenant of grass only and one because the conveyance referred to a right of way which was not coloured on the plan and the seller put in a missing information policy as there was an unknown right/easement.

The purchase took place in September 2018, then in March 2020 he received a final letter from the solicitor stating that registration had now been completed and he was to check the enclosed title plan. I noticed that the plan did not include the whole of this driveway, I looked on nimbus and said part of your drive has a different title number!! We contacted his solicitor and they retrieved the file. We contacted the seller and apparently she had gained a possessory title for part of the drive she had block paved.. she got the title in the January and sold the property 9 months later.  My partner’s Sol advised that seller’s solicitor had dissolved. Then his  solicitor sent a tr1 to my partner and one to seller. He returned his, she did the same but ignored the ID form she needed to complete. 

My partner’s solicitors have always claimed this is his fault as he had the title plan to check when he was buying the property, it was a very small plan and apparently she never queried with him the area around. He was totally oblivious and had no idea of a second title or that the drive, as on the estate agents details wasn’t part of the house. I chased the Sols regularly from June to December and they said they’d been chasing the seller. Solicitor tried to send the tr1 to land Reg without ID but when I phoned the land Reg they said it had been sent without any reason on the AP1 so it had been rejected. I put in a detailed complaint, at that stage. January 19th to both the director of the sols and complaints department.. to date it has not received attention. I spoke to many people at the land Reg, eventually someone sympathised with me and asked us to write a letter detailing what had happened and that the land was worth less than £6k, which I did. They then rejected it and contacted the solicitor asking them to supply a valuation, which to date they have not done, saying they don’t know anyone to do it.

im now totally stuck, I contacted an indemnity policy company regarding the fact this drive doesn’t have a policy and we can’t try to get title absolute for another 9 years and obviously they said, although it’s in our interests this can’t be applied until it’s in my partners name and has to be done through a solicitor. I phoned the solicitors last week for an update and nothings happened, I asked if I could have a copy of our file so I can check it thoroughly, including the TA6 but was told this could be difficult as it’s all scanned! 

I’m so sorry if I’ve put too much on here.. but it’s what I’ve been up against for a year now...

Tiglet2

Wendysharp44 said:

sorry yes I will try to explain in a clearer manner. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.

My partner in 2018 was going through a divorce and he had to sell his property, divide the funds and buy another. The solicitor acting for his divorce suggested a partner in the firm to do the conveyancing. By the looks of historic letters 2018 she was a trainee solicitor.

It seems this solicitor acted in the sale of his old property, purchase of new property and acted in the small mortgage he acquired. Exchange and completion took place in 5 days and he paid extra for that. He also had to purchase 3 indemnity policies and paid for all; one for the boiler, one for the fact the seller had blocked paved the drive which was  going against the covenant of grass only and one because the conveyance referred to a right of way which was not coloured on the plan and the seller put in a missing information policy as there was an unknown right/easement.

The purchase took place in September 2018, then in March 2020 he received a final letter from the solicitor stating that registration had now been completed and he was to check the enclosed title plan. I noticed that the plan did not include the whole of this driveway, I looked on nimbus and said part of your drive has a different title number!! We contacted his solicitor and they retrieved the file. We contacted the seller and apparently she had gained a possessory title for part of the drive she had block paved.. she got the title in the January and sold the property 9 months later.  My partner’s Sol advised that seller’s solicitor had dissolved. Then his  solicitor sent a tr1 to my partner and one to seller. He returned his, she did the same but ignored the ID form she needed to complete. 

My partner’s solicitors have always claimed this is his fault as he had the title plan to check when he was buying the property, it was a very small plan and apparently she never queried with him the area around. He was totally oblivious and had no idea of a second title or that the drive, as on the estate agents details wasn’t part of the house. I chased the Sols regularly from June to December and they said they’d been chasing the seller. Solicitor tried to send the tr1 to land Reg without ID but when I phoned the land Reg they said it had been sent without any reason on the AP1 so it had been rejected. I put in a detailed complaint, at that stage. January 19th to both the director of the sols and complaints department.. to date it has not received attention. I spoke to many people at the land Reg, eventually someone sympathised with me and asked us to write a letter detailing what had happened and that the land was worth less than £6k, which I did. They then rejected it and contacted the solicitor asking them to supply a valuation, which to date they have not done, saying they don’t know anyone to do it.

im now totally stuck, I contacted an indemnity policy company regarding the fact this drive doesn’t have a policy and we can’t try to get title absolute for another 9 years and obviously they said, although it’s in our interests this can’t be applied until it’s in my partners name and has to be done through a solicitor. I phoned the solicitors last week for an update and nothings happened, I asked if I could have a copy of our file so I can check it thoroughly, including the TA6 but was told this could be difficult as it’s all scanned! 

I’m so sorry if I’ve put too much on here.. but it’s what I’ve been up against for a year now...

When your partner was buying the property, the solicitor would have sent him the Title Plan.  The Title Plan may have been small, but it needed to be checked by the purchaser, since this is a fundamental part of confirming what you are buying.  The solicitor does NOT visit the property, so they would have specifically asked your partner to check that the Title Plan matched the boundaries/physical appearance "on the ground", i.e. the physical boundaries.  If your partner had done that and noticed that the physical boundaries did not match the Title Plan, he would have needed to advise the solicitor that there was a discrepancy, which would then have initiated enquiries to the seller.  If your partner chose not to look at the Title Plan and did not notice that there was a discrepancy, then unfortunately he made a huge error and his solicitor cannot be held responsible for that.


The trainee solicitor would have been supervised by a senior solicitor so I am not sure what you are trying to imply here.

I am surprised that it took 18 months to register the purchase, however, it's good that you spotted the discrepancy but the solicitor cannot query the area around if they don't visit the property and are relying on the purchaser checking the Title Plan.  They wouldn't know that there was a second title, unless your partner had advised that some areas were missing from the Title Plan they had sent him to review.


The good news though is that the seller appears to want to help, as evidenced by the signing of the TR1.  Perhaps if the solicitor (or you) can convince them to also complete the ID1 (suggest you will pay the legal fees for this), it should all get sorted out.

Possessory title is not a major issue.  It is likely that no-one will ever come forward claiming the land and your partner can update the title when sufficient time has passed.  Your solicitor can obtain a Possessory Title Indemnity Insurance for you which would financially help if you ever had to contest someone claiming the land in the future.

princeofpounds

Thanks OP - your explanation is much clearer now.

The solicitors are correct, in that he was supposed to review the title plan. However, I have to admit that every solicitor I have every interacted with has at least tried to check that things like access make sense, at least based on what they can see on the plan. If it's very obvious from the plan that access was not possible, then there should arguably have been a discussion about buying a property that was landlocked behind what is in effect a ransom strip. I would consider approaching the legal ombudsman about this even if you aren't certain that you would win - it's quite probable that it would make his solicitor expend some more effort to get a resolution, as it's an expense and time-sink they wouldn't want. However, it's probably the last thing you want to try, as going further than a basic internal complaint can cause the solicitor to refuse to act for him any more. And of course following up on your complaint and lack of response should be tried one more time before that.

Probably however your best bet is to directly approach the vendor. They can choose to unlock this problem at any time. If it wasn't for Covid, I would even suggest you go see them in person with a copy of the relevant forms, and potentially consider paying for their time and assistance. Hopefully they do not take the position that the driveway that they still own is now a ransom strip, though that seems less likely; there was clearly intent to include it in the sale.

Possessory title is not the main issue here; the lack of transfer and registration of the driveway is.

davidmcn

Mickey666 said:

Tiglet2 said:

Possessory title is not a major issue.  It is likely that no-one will ever come forward claiming the land and your partner can update the title when sufficient time has passed.  Your solicitor can obtain a Possessory Title Indemnity Insurance for you which would financially help if you ever had to contest someone claiming the land in the future.

What I can't imagine is how an indemnity policy could protect against such a scenario.

The insurers would attempt to pay off the other party, failing which they'd compensate you for the loss in value of your property 

davidmcn

Mickey666 said:

davidmcn said:

Mickey666 said:

Tiglet2 said:

Possessory title is not a major issue.  It is likely that no-one will ever come forward claiming the land and your partner can update the title when sufficient time has passed.  Your solicitor can obtain a Possessory Title Indemnity Insurance for you which would financially help if you ever had to contest someone claiming the land in the future.

What I can't imagine is how an indemnity policy could protect against such a scenario.

The insurers would attempt to pay off the other party, failing which they'd compensate you for the loss in value of your property 

So basically, an indemnity policy is only really financial protection.  It can't protect you from losing your house?

Well, yes, like any other insurance - motor insurance doesn't stop you crashing your car, life insurance doesn't make you immortal...

But in practice in this sort of situation, if a third party comes out of the woodwork the chances are they'll just be after some cash (in return for which your title will be sorted), rather than actually wanting to take up occupation of their odd bit of land.

princeofpounds

Just an addition on this ransom strip notion given I stirred it up... it's actually quite likely the plot is not actually landlocked, as it probably has an easement over the ransom strip (acquired by implication or necessity). Particularly so given both plots were under the same ownership, so a court would almost certainly interpret the vendor intended to grant access. So actually any indemnity insurance would probably seek to fight to establish that easement in court if necessary (or more realistically, settle an agreement before that fight).

Wendysharp44

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate your time.

can I presume therefore that when solicitors do their searches via the land registry they would not necessarily identify how many titles a property has registered and also when the seller completes the TR6 especially point 1.1 to 1.3 they don’t have to advise that there is a possessory title attached to the property ? I was led to believe that the whole point of appointing them was to eradicate troubles like this occurring. . A safety net for the layman. 

 I totally understand what you are saying about the title plan it is important and I recall when I purchased mine, my solicitor had me in to the office and showed me the boundaries in red and asked questions regarding a bit of land at the side, as to whether it was in the sale as he wasn’t going to view the property! Perhaps it just comes down to diligence.

We certainly don’t want any further bother than necessary, I guess the suggestion to try speak again with the vendors and get the id1 sorted and off to the land Reg to join the signed tr1, get an ind pol sorted and put the rest down to a bad experience and hope the possessory title doesn’t cause problems for future sale.

Chandler85

When I purchased 3 houses now, the solicitor I have used has not only got a google earth print out from above and a google streetview image of the property.

The solicitor used to to firstly confirm what I was buying was exactly what they thought I was buying.  I guess the google earth view also helped them look to check the shapes kinda matched up.  So any really obvious issues would have stood out.  But different solicitors used different methods.

Good luck getting it sorted though.

davidmcn

Wendysharp44 said:

can I presume therefore that when solicitors do their searches via the land registry they would not necessarily identify how many titles a property has registered and also when the seller completes the TR6 especially point 1.1 to 1.3 they don’t have to advise that there is a possessory title attached to the property ? I was led to believe that the whole point of appointing them was to eradicate troubles like this occurring. A safety net for the layman. 

The layman still needs to co-operate by confirming to the solicitor what it is they think they're buying. It's not normal for the solicitor to start hunting around all the surrounding titles for clues, unless it's pretty obvious that the title they've found can't comprise the whole of the property.