New combi boiler - am I being bullied and ripped off?

Blue_Cat

Hi all,

I currently have a 13 year old Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28i Junior Condensing Boiler installed.  It's unfortunately developed a leak on the right hand side as you face it, but it's not losing any pressure and we've still got heating and hot water.

I went on Checkatrade and found a local gas safe registered company to come out and take a look at it.  The gas engineer diagnosed the fault and said that the "manifold and pump" needed to be replaced, and the quote to repair (all-in) was £579.60.  I thought this was steep, but he explained that the WB parts are very expensive.  He did say that I would probably be better off getting a new boiler, rather than having my existing one repaired, as "once one thing starts to go, other parts start to go wrong with them".  I asked him how much a new WB boiler would be and he said I was looking at £3000 ish   Due to my current financial situation, I opted to go down the repair route still.  The engineer made comment that it was going to be a "nightmare job", as these things are fiddly and not easy to replace and he has very large fingers.

The engineer ordered the parts and today he came back to fit them.  He had not taken much apart when he said that he didn't realise that the replacement manifold didn't include a filter? (I'm not sure exactly which part it was that he showed me, but I'll call it a filter for the purpose of this post).  So he said he would have to put the old filter into the new manifold, and said again that it was going to be a "nightmare job".  He was concerned that by him doing this work, he could disturb other parts of the ageing boiler...and basically he was putting the "hard sell" on me having a new boiler installed (I had felt like he was trying to put the hard sell on me the day before, too).  He stopped the work and said I had to decide there and then before he installed the parts, by which point I would get charged for them (and as I say, they weren't cheap parts!).  I felt under so much pressure to decide whether or not to carry on with the repair work (which he was advising against), or to scrap the repairs and bite the bullet with a new boiler.  He sealed the deal for a new boiler when he said that there was evidence that there had been another leak in my existing boiler, so I asked him for some new boiler quotes.

The quotes to supply and fit 2 different new combi boilers, to be installed in the same place, including cost to drain and remove existing boiler, alter pipework to suit, fully flush system through with chemicals, supply and fit a new wireless clock and room thermostat, vertical flue and extension, internal filling link, and leave in good working order:-

1/ Worcester Bosch 30i Greenstar Combo Condensing boiler + 7 year warranty - £3000

2/ Biasi 30kw boiler + 5 year warranty - £2520

Of course I was then thinking about getting other quotes to compare, but the engineer said that if I DON'T use his company to install a new boiler, his manager would "charge me for coming out yesterday and again today".  When I asked how much the charges would be, he said something like £89 per hour + VAT.  Plus he said I would be charged PER HOUR for the time he had spent at my house, bearing in mind, this engineer spent most of his time at my house TALKING and engaging in non-stop chit-chat with me and my family members, showing me photographs of his dogs, and work that's been done on customer's bathrooms etc.  I didn't want to be rude and tell him to shut up, but I ended up not being able to do my own work because he was talking that much!  I don't mind paying something for the time he genuinely spent looking at my boiler, but I do mind paying for him to stand there chit-chatting. 

So the threat is - "buy a new boiler and have it installed by us, or else we are going to excessively charge you loads of money". 

And then there's the quotes for the boilers - from looking online, £3000 for the WB seems incredibly steep.  Comparative quotes for the same WB model, to be fitted, all-in, are coming in between £2090 and £2200 ish.  I told the gas engineer this when he rang me, and aside from giving me all of the blarney sales pitch, he said, "I'll speak to my boss - he's here now" and I heard him talking to someone.  He then came back with £2760 for the WB - so immediately he took £240 off his original £3000 quote!  Does that not show that he was ripping me off, if he could just drop the price like that?  I don't trust this company now, but I feel like they've "got me over a barrel" and are going to charge me god-knows-what for coming out to my house yesterday and today if I do not agree to have a new boiler installed with them. 

Advice please?  Do I legally have to pay this company whatever it is they will charge me for coming out to inspect my boiler if I choose not to have any work done by them?  (I really I would like to sack this overpriced company off and take my business elsewhere). 

Jeepers_Creepers

Oh dear - what a 'mare.

Have you paid anything yet?

Ok, if you aren't losing pressure, then it's a leak from your mains water, so the boiler will keep working - at least until the leak soaks something like the electrical bits... This sounds like what I had recently, although my boiler is a GlowWorm and the 'manifold' is called a 'hydroblock'.

A pump is around £75, although good chance he'll be charging you the full RRP whatever that is. The manifold is more, around £140, and probably ditto. To replace both should be doable in an hour, 2 at the most. If he has fat fingers, then tough - get a fat-fingered job. (Sounds more like he has sticky fingers...)

Yes, it's a costly job, but approaching £600 is unjustifiable as far as I can see - unless, perhaps, you are in London and have just called out Pimlico Plumbers? I'd have thought that closer to £400 tops would be 'reasonable', but I'm not a GasThingy.

And the quotes for a new boiler are similarly steep. They may need  to fit a condensate pipe - actually, at only 13 years (mine is 16...) it should already have one? And where does your flue go - straight out a side wall or through the ceiling?

Sadly, I think you are probably stuffed. You have agreed a contract with them to fix the boiler, so you'd struggle to justify pulling out now they've started the job. If you don't want to go for a new boiler, then they should continue with the repair without further ado and with no more complaint.

If you feel genuinely manipulated and unfairly pressurised into going for a new boiler, then you may have grounds for terminating this 'contract' if they also keep moaning about the repair, or at least for not allowing the repair charge to go up any higher. But it's a toughie - they could equally claim they were just being upfront and clear about the options. It would have been good to have had him recorded...

What to do? Depends on what you've already paid him - how 'committed' you are. Could you possibly get away with just the diagnostic call-out fee?  I would say - and he'd struggle to contradict you based on what you've said - that you could show him the door on the basis of unprofessionalism and what you perceive as being barely-disguised exploitation. His whole manner - moans, excuses, fat fingers, nightmare job, filter missing, etc etc along with the constant pressure to go 'new' does not a good customer-tradesperson relationship make. You should be reassured and not pressurised/ feel exploited.

Of course, if you refuse to let them back - 'sack' them - they will kick up a stink. You obviously owe them for the diagnostic call-out fee at least, and possibly (for the sake of peace) an hour's labour, but I would say not for the curtailed repair - they are the ones who stopped halfway through, complained about other issues like the filter and, again, the 'mare of a job' - and again tried to pressurise you into going 'new'. 13 years is 'getting on' for a boiler, but a WB should still be chugging along at this age and more.

How far did he actually get? Has he started to fit the new parts? Has he removed the old? What have you paid them?

They'll threaten litigation, and you simply pick up a sheet of type-written paper and read out the list of unprofessional behaviours you've had to suffer - the stuff you've mentioned in your first post. EVERYTHING - write them down now in a numbered list - all his moans, all his excuses. Add 'Chatting incessantly about his family and showing me pics of his dogs, keeping me from my work - and then threatening to charge me over £100 ph for the pleasure...' and tell him, "I'll be happy to discuss all this in front of a magistrate, and equally happy to paste this all over Facebook and review sites..."

That's got to be your call. You are not on solid ground. But if what you say is a true reflection, I have no sympathy with them.

If you do terminate the contract, what do you do then? I would have recommended calling WB for a fixed price repair (£300) in the first place, but I doubt they'll do it now on a half-dismantled boiler.

I fear you are stuffed.

Blue_Cat

Hi Jeepers, thank you for taking the time to read my post, and also for taking the time to reply - much appreciated. 

I shall answer your questions:-

I am not in London  I am in Birmingham. 

The existing flue goes through the ceiling.  If I have a new boiler installed, it will be like-for-like i.e. combi boiler to combi boiler.  I am not looking to change the location of the boiler. 

Yes, I had verbally agreed to the repair of the boiler, but no repair work actually took place.  The engineer got as far as unscrewing the faceplate to access the inside of the boiler, and then I think he unscrewed one or two components from within the boiler...but then he stopped. No new parts were installed, and they have gone back with the engineer.  The engineer screwed back in the one or two existing parts that he had unscrewed, and then he sealed the boiler back up.  All of this "work" did not take him very long at all, because as I say, he spend a large amount of time chatting about his personal life.

With regards to having a new boiler installed, whilst I have resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably have to have one now, I have not agreed (verbally or otherwise) to have one installed by the engineer's company - all I have is his written quotation.  We last spoke on the phone about it this afternoon, after he had given me a couple of hours to "think about it" (at my request - I said I need time to think about what to do, as I was feeling pressurised to make a decision).  I told him that I was not happy with the quoted price for the install of a new boiler (I said I thought it was far too steep), and he then spoke to his manager and they dropped the price from £3k to £2760.  This actually made me distrust them more, because it said to me that they were trying to rip me off

No payment has been made whatsoever thus far, and they do not hold any of my bank card details or anything like that.  They have simply "threatened" - sorry "advised me" that if I do not have a new boiler installed by them, then I WILL be charged for "all of the time that the engineer has been at my house".  But charge me for what?  No work has been carried out - apart from diagnosing the problem with the boiler, of which of course I am happy to pay for the diagnostic work.  But that is it - I do not think I should have to pay for the hour or so he spent chatting about his dogs and his wife etc. 

Unless they can drop their quote considerably, to something far more reasonable, then I will tell them that I am getting a new boiler installed via another company.  Even WB themselves quoted less for the install of a new WB boiler than this company, and I think it included a longer warranty! 

Jeepers_Creepers

Blue_Cat said:

I am not in London  I am in Birmingham. 
The existing flue goes through the ceiling.  If I have a new boiler installed, it will be like-for-like i.e. combi boiler to combi boiler.  I am not looking to change the location of the boiler. 
Yes, I had verbally agreed to the repair of the boiler, but no repair work actually took place.  The engineer got as far as unscrewing the faceplate to access the inside of the boiler, and then I think he unscrewed one or two components from within the boiler...but then he stopped. No new parts were installed, and they have gone back with the engineer.  The engineer screwed back in the one or two existing parts that he had unscrewed, and then he sealed the boiler back up.  All of this "work" did not take him very long at all, because as I say, he spend a large amount of time chatting about his personal life.
Unless they can drop their quote considerably, to something far more reasonable, then I will tell them that I am getting a new boiler installed via another company.  Even WB themselves quoted less for the install of a new WB boiler than this company, and I think it included a longer warranty!

Ah! That's good news - they have reinstated the boiler to its previous state.

I have to say, I am certain what I would do - tell them our relationship is off...

I would make out a cheque for the diagnostic callout charge (or 1 hour's labour) and send it to them with a covering letter stating it's in 'full and final payment for services provided' - a diagnosis of the fault.

I'd leave it at that, but if and when they make contact, you are free to let rip - tell them how unimpressed you are by their attitude throughout, and list the sorts of things that were going on.

Do you have Legal Protection on your house insurance? If so, call them up for advice initially, explain the situation, and ask how you should handle it if they continue to harass you.

I would then choose a fixed-price repair outfit, perhaps WB themselves (might make sense?) but there are lots; Homeserve, British Gas (normally to avoid), and, er, others. First, tho' I would check their T&Cs to make sure there's nothing excluding a 13-year old boiler. You should have it all done for less than £300. (Yes, when you add the ~£100 you are having to pay the other guys, that's now £400, but still a long way off the ~£600 it was going to cost, with no guarantee it wasn't even going to go higher!)

I have to say, replacing the pump and manifold is bread and butter stuff to any engineer, and would not at all be excessive work for such a fixed-price repair.

I should add, tho', that there's a chance they'll say there are so many faulty parts that it's beyond economical repair, in which case they'll still charge you around £95 for the privilege and you'll be back to square one! So, it's a bit of a gamble. (What they do is, they'll replace everything that could be 'dodgy', to ensure there's no risk of a callback within their 3-month warranty period. This can add up, and if it becomes no longer cost-effective for the age of the boiler, they might not do it. On the balance of probabilities, tho', I would hazard that a 13 year old WB (ie younger than mine and a better make...) with only a leaking manifold and faulty pump should be covered, and will be. On that point, I think I would use WB themselves for this job - if they try and claim 'not cost-effective', you can reply "Are you really saying your top-quality boilers are junk after only 13 years? I'd better go for a proper make next time..."

This has to be your call, Blue_Cat, but I have to say I really dislike the sort of attitude tried on by this outfit - I don't think they deserve your business. A 'good' company doesn't have to be like this as they are run off their feet with deserved work.

Are you expecting them to call you for an update?

maxsteam

My feeling is that you agreed to pay £579.60 for the repair. If the plumber had completed the repair, you should pay him this. If the plumber changed his mind because of the "nightmare" or the "filter" or the "another leak", then that's his problem. If he's gone away without doing any work when you were wanting the repair, then you don't owe him any money and you should dispute his bills. You could also say that, because of his attitude, you do not want the same plumber to come into your house again. It has clearly disturbed you. The plumber is at fault, not you.