Can I decide about installing an inner porch door later?

tallac

My house is being renovated which includes a newly built brick porch (double walled with proper insulation). Both hallway and porch will have underfloor heating and porcelain floor tiles.

Initially I was thinking that the inner door would need to be purchased from the outset because the door frame and door would be installed before the tiles are installed, and once the frame was in place, the tiles would then be installed in the porch area as well as the hallway. But then I started to think that maybe all the tiling is done first (giving a seamless transition from hallway to porch) and then the frame will be installed after (i.e. the frame would be sitting on top of the tiles.

Does anyone know which one is the correct way to install the inner porch door? If both are valid, then my preference is to have the inner porch door to be installed on top of the tiles as this means that I could defer the install until later on. The outer porch door will be the main door providing the security and thermal envelope to the house.

Thoughts?

Emmia

How secure is the first door (on the outer porch?) Is/will the second door (the inner door, you're delaying) be the one with the multipoint locks etc., or are you making both equally secure?

Do you actually need 2 doors? Could the porch just be part of your hallway?

Andy_L

What has you builder said when you asked them about the options for the order of work?

Jeepers_Creepers

There is no reason at all why you cannot delay the fitting of the inside door if that is what you prefer.

The frame will be mounted to the doorway gap in the wall, and the bottoms of the side jambs will 'hover' a mm or so above the tiles and not actually sit on them. There's no need to worry about draught-proofing the door against the floor either, since the UFH goes all the way through and the outer door does this job.

No threshold plate, nuffink - it'll flow through seamlessly as you say.

How wide and neat is the opening that's currently there for the future door? That's the only (minor) issue I'd think about; if you can make that opening the exact right size now in order to take an off-the-shelf frame and standard door size later on, you'll save yourself a fair bit of 'making good' when it's finally fitted. The door + frame would just slot in, get screwed, caulked, jobbie jobbed.

I'd have a word with your builder and explain your plan - ask them to finish that opening now to take a standard (2'9"? or whatever you decide on) door + frame later on without having to widen or narrow the gap.

Think about that door size too - if you think you may even have that inner door left open for appearance's sake for large parts of Summer, think about how wide you'd like it to be. Of course, also considering that it has likely to swing back against a side wall. Consider all options at this stage - sliding? Double-doors? Barn?!

(That last one might not be as crazy as it first sounds, depending on your needs. If a lot of light will be coming from that porch, then you might be considering a glass panel in the internal door to allow this. But if you wanted the light but not glass, then a half-open barn door might give you an interesting solution.)

tallac

Awesome, thank you so much for the information. The external porch door will be a proper external multipoint locking system door. The location of where the inner door will be is the same location as the old external door (which has now been taken out). Also, the space for both door frames are pretty wide (almost as wide as the entire width of the hallway), this is because the door frame gap is designed for a door with two side panels.

I didn't realise that the door frame doesn't actually sit on the floor. If it is the sides of the frame that take the weight of the frame then this is great as it truly means that there's no issue with deciding to have the inner door further down the line.

Jeepers_Creepers

tallac said:

I didn't realise that the door frame doesn't actually sit on the floor. If it is the sides of the frame that take the weight of the frame then this is great as it truly means that there's no issue with deciding to have the inner door further down the line.

When a house is fitted out inside in the usual way, then - yes - the door frames would sit on the 'floor' 'cos there's no reason for them not to. And the walls either side of the door frame would be built up off the floor joists, with the actual flooring fitted aferwards.

All I'm suggesting here is that, when retro-fitting a door frame, there's no need for the frame to 'sit' on the floor as it's simply screwed to the sides of the wall opening so is self-supporting.

However, you have changed that situation a bit by explaining that there isn't really a 'door' opening there at the moment at all - it's more full-width? In which case it wouldn't just be a door 'frame' that would need building there, but also two side walls so close the gap. That's different...

What are you planning for the future, then? To build new part-walls to close off that wide hallway gap until it's the right width for a single door? Hmm, in that case, this 'building in' of frames either side in order to narrow the opening will really need to sit on the floor or else it would be 'loose'. 

You need to have a chat about the options with your builder.

tallac

Jeepers_Creepers said:

tallac said:

I didn't realise that the door frame doesn't actually sit on the floor. If it is the sides of the frame that take the weight of the frame then this is great as it truly means that there's no issue with deciding to have the inner door further down the line.

When a house is fitted out inside in the usual way, then - yes - the door frames would sit on the 'floor' 'cos there's no reason for them not to. And the walls either side of the door frame would be built up off the floor joists, with the actual flooring fitted aferwards.

All I'm suggesting here is that, when retro-fitting a door frame, there's no need for the frame to 'sit' on the floor as it's simply screwed to the sides of the wall opening so is self-supporting.

However, you have changed that situation a bit by explaining that there isn't really a 'door' opening there at the moment at all - it's more full-width? In which case it wouldn't just be a door 'frame' that would need building there, but also two side walls so close the gap. That's different...

What are you planning for the future, then? To build new part-walls to close off that wide hallway gap until it's the right width for a single door? Hmm, in that case, this 'building in' of frames either side in order to narrow the opening will really need to sit on the floor or else it would be 'loose'. 

You need to have a chat about the options with your builder.

I think I've mis-communicated the situation. So the original front of the house didn't have a porch. The original front door had two side glass panels either side and it took up most of the width of the hallway. Not completely, maybe a brick length into the hallway from each side. However, that door and frame was extremely battered and needed replacing.

A new porch has been built. It is a proper double brick walled and insulated porch. The floor of the porch is level with the hallway. and the under floor heating is covering the porch as well. The door frame gap that was left on the front of the porch is pretty much the same as the original door frame (i.e. so I could have a wide door with glass side panels either side).

My initial intention was that I would replace the original door as well as put in a new door on the front of the porch. Given that the door on the front of the porch would be a proper multi point security door and it would be thermally sound, then it wouldn't really matter what kind of door (if any) I put on the inner side of the porch. I was going to put in both but if there is very little downside to delaying the inner door then I might as well.

My initial worry with delaying the inner door is if the fitment of the door at a later stage would damage in anyway, the tiles or the underfloor heating where the door frame would go. But sounds like this isn't the case.

Hope that clarifies things.

Jeepers_Creepers

Thanks Tallac - I think I followed it from your previous update, but that's fully clear now.

Ok, the issue is, a door needs to be firmly attached to a wall. Doors are heavy, so the door hinges need to be secured to a wall that doesn't have any movement in it. Ditto the latch side - that door needs to be able to cope with being slammed shut, and the wall that the frame is attached to must be firm and secure. That usually means the frame is anchored to the floor as well.

So, if you wish to have side wall 'returns' added to your hallway in order to narrow the width down enough to take a normal door, then really these short return walls need to be able to not budge an iota - they need to be fixed to the floor as well. Normally that's done by screwing through, but that would be a bad idea since you have UFH.

It could, tho', be done by adhering the bottoms of the return walls to the tiled floor. Whether that's a good idea, I don't know. It would mean that the shock of the door closing would be transferred down to the tiled floor.

I'm not a builder and by no means clued-up in this particular field, but I would suggest to you that you decide now what width of door you intend to have in the future.

If this is to be a standard 2'9" or wider door, then I'd have these side wall returns built NOW to accommodate this, before the UFH and the tiles. When you want in the future, you can fit a door by simply having the frame screwed into this gap. Jobbie jobbed.

Alternatively - and it might be nicer, especially if you envisage having the internal doors left open for periods of time - leave the two small existing returns as they are, fit the UFH and the tiles, and then have custom double-doors made and fitted in the future to fill that gap. When open, each will fold back against the side walls to a lesser degree than one door would, so will look more 'open'.

What is the existing opening width, and what size door do you anticipate having in future?

A photo also helps a lot :-)

tallac

Sorry for the delay, been a crazy long weekend. Here are some photos to help explain things:




The red lines show where the old door used to be. As you can see, it's pretty much the full width of the hallway. The grey concrete blocks are new and part of the newly built porch. You can also see the floor level between the new porch and the hallway is at the same level.

Even with the tiling and under floor heating done, it seems like the inner porch door could be relatively easy to add further down the line. Hoping people can confirm this now that I've got some photos to better describe things.

Thanks in advance :-)

Jeepers_Creepers

That opening is - what? - around 1.5m wide?

It would seem to me that you have two basic options. One is to leave that opening pretty much as wide as it is, fit your floor, and then - when you decide - fit double doors there. If these have lots of glass, for example, they'll allow lots of light into your hallway. They will also be easy to fit since they'll both be hinged to the side walls - with a frame added first. (Since there won't be a bottom threshold plate for the door to latch down into, it would need doing into the frame above.) If there's enough swing room, they can even be left fully open for much of the time if you like that 'through' look.

The other is to have a single - wider - door in the middle (say 2'9" or 3'), with a short return wall coming out each side, probably around 1 foot each (300mm).

If you are drawn towards the second option - the single central door - I would imagine it would be far better to build these return walls now so that they are properly fixed top, side and bottom. The finished opening would be left to suit the required door width and its associated frame, which can simply be screwed into place at the time of your choosing.

Really, tho', you need to take this through with your builder - they should understand and guide you.

tallac

Jeepers_Creepers said:

That opening is - what? - around 1.5m wide?

It would seem to me that you have two basic options. One is to leave that opening pretty much as wide as it is, fit your floor, and then - when you decide - fit double doors there. If these have lots of glass, for example, they'll allow lots of light into your hallway. They will also be easy to fit since they'll both be hinged to the side walls - with a frame added first. (Since there won't be a bottom threshold plate for the door to latch down into, it would need doing into the frame above.) If there's enough swing room, they can even be left fully open for much of the time if you like that 'through' look.

The other is to have a single - wider - door in the middle (say 2'9" or 3'), with a short return wall coming out each side, probably around 1 foot each (300mm).

If you are drawn towards the second option - the single central door - I would imagine it would be far better to build these return walls now so that they are properly fixed top, side and bottom. The finished opening would be left to suit the required door width and its associated frame, which can simply be screwed into place at the time of your choosing.

Really, tho', you need to take this through with your builder - they should understand and guide you.

Both the inner and outer opens are 1.8m wide. On the external side I'm planning to get a 915mm wide door (36") with the remaining space taken up by side glass panels either side. With regards to the inner side, I was planning to get similar dimension door and side panels too. Your idea of having double doors with lots of glass is worth considering though.

What I don't understand is the bit where you mention about having a short return wall. If I have a door in the middle with the rest of the opening taken up by side panels either side of the door, wouldn't that avoid needing any kind of wall being built? After all, the original door opening was entirely within the existing opening you see above.