Your detective help needed!!! Tracking down an old insurance company...

Hinch71

Hi everyone - I need your detective work help again please!! I'm not sure if any of you read or remember a post I added here a few weeks ago, about the fact that I'm settling my mum's estate and there's an existing charge on the title deeds from Royal Insurance, which is proving very difficult to get removed!! (see: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6238417/help-needed-re-tracking-down-royal-insurance-contact#latest )

Croeso69 you were very helpful and put me in touch with a chap called Keith who runs the Royal Insurance pension association. There have been many twists and turns since then, but ultimately RSA looked into it and confirmed that all policies relating to Royal Insurance went to Phoenix, and so handed it over to them. I've talked to lots of friendly helpful people, but we've now hit a bit of a brick wall and I'm hoping someone here might be able to help!

The bottom line is that the company very specifically named in the title deeds is 'Royal Insurance Company Limited'... and we're all finding it VERY difficult to find where that company's responsibilities have now moved to. As I say above, RSA confirmed that all Royal Insurance *policies* appear to have moved to Phoenix. But the removal of the charge isn't a policy-level matter - it's a company level one. And nobody involved has been able to confirm, for sure, what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Limited. The curious thing is that there's not much listed about that business anywhere! There's mention on a British Museum page (https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/BIOG231350) but nothing obvious included in Companies House. Unless you do some real digging, which turns up this page: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01565099/filing-history?page=10 which seems to indicate that Royal Life  (who I believe are the successors to Phoenix) took over the Life Business of Royal Insurance Company Limited in 1981. We are of course talking to Phoenix about whether, by taking over the assets via Royal Life, this means they can sign the deed. But if they say no, we then need to find out what happened to Royal Insurance Company Limited  after the asset transfer in 1981.  

Time is now very much of the essence, as the property is in Scotland and our buyers miss the stamp duty breaks up there if this doesn't complete by a week today!

If any of you have any ideas/tips/tricks that you can suggest to help us help Phoenix find what they need to then become happy to sign the deed, then please please share!  As I say, I can't fault Phoenix's helpful nature - it's just they're struggling to find the necessary information within their Group that will give the clarity needed for them to agree to sign the deed.

Apologies if this isn't explained clearly enough to follow - I'm talking about a complicated situation that I confess I don't understand as much as I'd like to! I've tried my best ;-)

Thanks!

Croeso69

Phoenix took over the life insurance part of Royal and Sun Alliance (including what was Royal Insurance) circa 2005 (EDIT: not 2007).

The general insurance side remained with Royal and Sun Alliance, now known as RSA Group. They are in the process of a takeover by a consortium of two companies – Intact from Canada, and Tryg from Denmark. Maybe http://www.rsagroup.com may be worth a look for an alternative contact?

xylophone

Did you ever try the Sasine Register?

It does occur to me that this is not a matter of a transferred policy but simply a charge  placed by a corporate body on the house in question.

It is therefore up to the corporate body (or its successors in title) to remove the charge.

If the successor in title to Royal Insurance Company Ltd is RSA Insurance Group (as appears to be the case), then surely it is up to an authorised signatory of the corporate body known as RSA Group to do what is necessary?

dunstonh

And nobody involved has been able to confirm, for sure, what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Limited. 

It still exists but is a non-trading company.  It is owned by Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Plc which in turn is owned by RSA Insurance Group plc.

My understanding is that Phoenix bought the life and pensions book but it did not buy the company.  So, anything policy related on the L&P side is with Phoenix but anything company related remains with R&SA.

The only time insurers put charges against property are with borrowing.   In the case of insurers, that often means equity release.  If it was policy-related then Phoenix would be in control.

Hinch71

Hi @xylophone !

Yes we did try the Sasine Register! Unfortunately it didn't unearth anything of any help, really just confirmed pretty much what we already knew. But worth doing.

>>It is therefore up to the corporate body (or its successors in title) to remove the charge.

Yes indeed! (this is what I meant when I said it's not a 'policy' matter but a company one... you've put it much better than I managed!). But this is where we get stuck, because Phoenix haven't (yet) been able to satisfy themselves that they are indeed the successor for Royal Insurance Company Ltd. 

>>If the successor in title to Royal Insurance Company Ltd is RSA Insurance Group (as appears to be the case), then surely it is up to an authorised signatory of the corporate body known as RSA Group to do what is necessary?

After much deliberation, the company secretariat at RSA deemed that they were NOT the successor for this, and that's when they passed it to the company secretariat at Phoenix... which is where we're now stuck :-(
Unfortunately "it appears to be the case" that it could be either RSA or Phoenix. There's logic behind both being the successor. And the real lack of any clear information about what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Ltd means we're getting nowhere fast, unfortunately.

Thanks for your suggestions though, I really appreciate you replying so quickly.

 

xylophone

And the real lack of any clear information about what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Ltd  

See duncan's post above. If RIC

 is a non trading company owned by  Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Plc which in turn is owned by RSA Insurance Group plc.

then there would seem to be no doubt that it is up to RSAIG to remove the charge?

If this shilly shallying continues, you may need to consult a corporate law solicitor to sort the matter out?

Hinch71

@dunstonh
I just typed a reply to you but it doesn't seem to have appeared! I'll try again ;-)

You said: it still exists but is a non-trading company.  It is owned by Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Plc which in turn is owned by RSA Insurance Group plc. My understanding is that Phoenix bought the life and pensions book but it did not buy the company.  So, anything policy related on the L&P side is with Phoenix but anything company related remains with R&SA.

@du@dunstonh Have you seen that information detailed in writing anywhere?? Or are you going by your own knowledge of these companies? The issue we have is that we can't find anything in writing that confirms whether the company exists/doesn't exist/is non trading etc. RSA bounced it to Phoenix, more because they were looking at it as a policy matter (and, I suspect, because they wanted to get it off their to do list!). But if Phoenix didn't buy the company, and it still remains with R&SA, I really need something that shows this fact in order for us (my solicitor) to push back at R&SA. If you've got any suggestions as to where this might be detailed in black and white, I'd be forever in your debt!

Hinch71

xylophone said:

And the real lack of any clear information about what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Ltd  

See duncan's post above. If RIC

 is a non trading company owned by  Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Plc which in turn is owned by RSA Insurance Group plc.

then there would seem to be no doubt that it is up to RSAIG to remove the charge?

If this shilly shallying continues, you may need to consult a corporate law solicitor to sort the matter out?

I fear you might be right...and I also fear that can get pricey! How would I go about finding a corporate law solicitor? I'm assuming they're a specialised bunch?

Hinch71

Just to add to this... the frustrating thing is, this relates to a house purchase 40 years ago - which was paid in full only 18 months later when my dad was sadly killed in an accident very suddenly. So there's absolutely no chance of any money still being owed, or any risk to anyone agreeing to add their signature to release it!  I wish someone would just step up and agree to do it so we could all (you guys included!) put this to bed and forget about it ;-) 

Thrugelmir

Hinch71 said:

And nobody involved has been able to confirm, for sure, what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Limited. 

Became Royal Insurance plc 

The parent company was Royal Insurance Holdings plc that was formed in 1988. 

Then merged with Sun Alliance in 1996 

Hinch71

Thrugelmir said:

Hinch71 said:

And nobody involved has been able to confirm, for sure, what exactly happened to Royal Insurance Company Limited. 

Became Royal Insurance plc 

The parent company was Royal Insurance Holdings plc that was formed in 1988. 

Then merged with Sun Alliance in 1996 

This tallies with what others have told me, thanks @thr@Thrugelmir . However, I'm still in the situation where we can't find anything that proves this to be the case. It's literally hearsay unless we can do so. Do you happen to know where this might be detailed in black and white?