Fixing heavy radiator over insulation...

delmonta

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

So if resin is stronger I'd like to go with that. The nuts and threaded rod will be behind the radiator. I doubt you'll see them. I could paint them black as the radiator is black 

No prob - man who go to bed with rad problem wake up with solution in hand. (That's plumber-!!!!!!)

Yes, your reason for going 'resin' is a good one. And it also solves the 'crushing' issue

Before resining-in the threaded bar, do one more wee thing - enlarge the hole in the p'board layer by the diameter of the nuts you will use, and to the depth of the nut thickness. Doesn't matter is it's slightly untidy...

Resin in threaded bar as before, and allow to set. Now fit a first nut and spin it right down until it's a washer-thickness below the p'board surface level. Put on a washer. Fit your bracket, add another washer and then the second nut. Do up that second nut and the bracket will be securely held at the correct position between two nuts and two washers, with the lower washer now sunk into the p'board surface but with no risk of 'crushing' it any further. (Have a play first - you may wish to fit the first nut and washer to end up slightly - 1mm-ish - below the surface level so the bracket is tightly drawn in to the p'board.)

Then use the masonry screw for the second fixing.

Jobbie jobbed.

God so glad I asked this here. Great advice

So before you wrote this, I had planned only to put resin in the brickwork, and was going to leave the insulation and plasterboard layer empty, just with the hole for the threaded bar! So you're saying fill the whole lot up with resin? That makes sense of course. I don't know why I only was thinking of the brick work

And yes your plan with the washers sounds like an extra bit of security

delmonta

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

Ok that's a little worrying. I wonder if that will happen here too. The brackets are only about 5cm x 4cm. Not much spread on the pressure. 
The plumbers just turning up now, but honestly not sure if I trust these guys to care as much as I do. They want to use Flexi pipes instead of copper and said that's normal. I'm sure it's not

I think it's reasonable to consider that flexis will not last as long as copper or plastic. This is 'cos they have 'rubber' (neoprene?) hoses inside them, and there are many instances of these perishing or even creasing/folding/collapsing over time. I would want assurances that the items used have water-tight guarantees for decades...

If they want a little movement - and that would be perfectly understandable especially if the pipes are coming out the back of the wall? - then why not use copper-flexi 'concertinaed' pipes, or even plastic pipe?

I had this issue with mine - the pipes were coming out from the wall behind the rads, so had to be in exactly the right position to mate up with the valves, and with only a short 2" amount of pipe showing. Lawdie - that's too much precision. So I made room behind the boards (this was a new extension, so could do this before the p'boards were D&D'd in place) and ran the pipes in 10mm plastic microbore, changing to 15mm copper tails at the last point behind the boards. That gave me the required 1/2" plus 'play' room, and I needed every bit of it... Plastic decorative collars covered the mess

It's Victorian house and o spent loads on fancy column radiators and nice valves, so I can't really have Flexi pipe going into it! 

Funnily enough the umber just arrived, who works for the insulation company. I was so worried he would just want to bodge it all. But he turned up and saw some of what they did and said it was a joke, and he's reported it. They can do the insulation and render/player fine, but they know nothing about electrics or plumbing. So they plastered over the central heating pipes in the corner, but it's half sticking out of the plaster, and they filled the remaining gap with expanding foam and plastered over that, which is going to crack. It looks awful too. Photos attached. 

So luckily thus plumber is saying we rip those pipes out from beneath the plaster and insulation and drop new ones down from the ceiling in the right position. 

Stupid waste of time because the insulation guys were rushing and bodged it. They are an all polish team, seem good at what they do for the most part, work super hard, but just don't slow down to get it right. To be fair they are probably getting paid very little.
Photos attached of the bodged area. Hard to really show

Mutton_Geoff

That pipe could have so easily been cut and moved to hide inside the new wall.

Jeepers_Creepers

delmonta said:

So before you wrote this, I had planned only to put resin in the brickwork, and was going to leave the insulation and plasterboard layer empty, just with the hole for the threaded bar! So you're saying fill the whole lot up with resin? That makes sense of course. I don't know why I only was thinking of the brick work

And yes your plan with the washers sounds like an extra bit of security

Hmm, that's not what I meant, but it's actually not a bad idea!

Normally you'd drill the correct sized hole for the bar through everything, which I presume is slightly large by a mm or so (haven't looked)? And then I'd only be bothered about putting the resin in the brick hole itself, but - yes - it makes sense to inject enough to also hold the bar in the insulation layer, as this will just help to prevent sideways movement. Mind you, you'd need to ensure the bar it pointing out exactly as you want it before the resin sets...

Really, the only essential part is fixing the bar in the masonry hole - anything else is just a minor bonus.

The idea of the two nuts and washers (with one nut and washer sunk into the p'board) is not extra 'security', but to prevent the insulation layer from being crushed whilst you can still tighten up the bracket as tight as you want with no risk of this.

Jeepers_Creepers

delmonta said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

Ok that's a little worrying. I wonder if that will happen here too. The brackets are only about 5cm x 4cm. Not much spread on the pressure. 
The plumbers just turning up now, but honestly not sure if I trust these guys to care as much as I do. They want to use Flexi pipes instead of copper and said that's normal. I'm sure it's not

I think it's reasonable to consider that flexis will not last as long as copper or plastic. This is 'cos they have 'rubber' (neoprene?) hoses inside them, and there are many instances of these perishing or even creasing/folding/collapsing over time. I would want assurances that the items used have water-tight guarantees for decades...

If they want a little movement - and that would be perfectly understandable especially if the pipes are coming out the back of the wall? - then why not use copper-flexi 'concertinaed' pipes, or even plastic pipe?

I had this issue with mine - the pipes were coming out from the wall behind the rads, so had to be in exactly the right position to mate up with the valves, and with only a short 2" amount of pipe showing. Lawdie - that's too much precision. So I made room behind the boards (this was a new extension, so could do this before the p'boards were D&D'd in place) and ran the pipes in 10mm plastic microbore, changing to 15mm copper tails at the last point behind the boards. That gave me the required 1/2" plus 'play' room, and I needed every bit of it... Plastic decorative collars covered the mess

It's Victorian house and o spent loads on fancy column radiators and nice valves, so I can't really have Flexi pipe going into it! 

Funnily enough the umber just arrived, who works for the insulation company. I was so worried he would just want to bodge it all. But he turned up and saw some of what they did and said it was a joke, and he's reported it. They can do the insulation and render/player fine, but they know nothing about electrics or plumbing. So they plastered over the central heating pipes in the corner, but it's half sticking out of the plaster, and they filled the remaining gap with expanding foam and plastered over that, which is going to crack. It looks awful too. Photos attached. 

So luckily thus plumber is saying we rip those pipes out from beneath the plaster and insulation and drop new ones down from the ceiling in the right position. 

Stupid waste of time because the insulation guys were rushing and bodged it. They are an all polish team, seem good at what they do for the most part, work super hard, but just don't slow down to get it right. To be fair they are probably getting paid very little.
Photos attached of the bodged area. Hard to really show

Yes, the insulation/plastering guys will be just that - and the work they've done does look nicely finished. Where is all goes to pot is as you say - they are not plumbers, and neither are they particularly interested in catering for existing pipes. They thought they were doing the best they could with these pipes, but really these pipes should have been moved beforehand.

That wall on the RH side - does that have insulation in it? If so, the pipes could surely have been sunk in there and completely hidden (at least until they came out at the bottom).

Flexi pipes have their uses, but having them on show is a total no-no.

When you say 'column' rads, do you mean contemporary, tubular, designer rads, or the old-school 'cast iron' floor-standing type? If the former, then I don't know how to hide these ugly pipes - even coming down from the ceiling they will be visible to some extent. There are possibilities such as burying the existing pipes in that RH wall (if there's insulation thickness for this), reducing them down to 10mm plastic pipe at the bottom before they come out, and then hiding these behind the skirting boards until they then come back out for the rads. The visible 'tails' can be covered with 15mm decorative pipe covers. This, tho', will need someone willing to do the extra work.

If, however, you mean cast iron floor-mounted rads, then I think I'd personally toy with hiding the existing pipes in the wall as before, changing to 10mm plastic, and running these inside cast iron pipes and elbows up to the rads.

delmonta

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

Ok that's a little worrying. I wonder if that will happen here too. The brackets are only about 5cm x 4cm. Not much spread on the pressure. 
The plumbers just turning up now, but honestly not sure if I trust these guys to care as much as I do. They want to use Flexi pipes instead of copper and said that's normal. I'm sure it's not

I think it's reasonable to consider that flexis will not last as long as copper or plastic. This is 'cos they have 'rubber' (neoprene?) hoses inside them, and there are many instances of these perishing or even creasing/folding/collapsing over time. I would want assurances that the items used have water-tight guarantees for decades...

If they want a little movement - and that would be perfectly understandable especially if the pipes are coming out the back of the wall? - then why not use copper-flexi 'concertinaed' pipes, or even plastic pipe?

I had this issue with mine - the pipes were coming out from the wall behind the rads, so had to be in exactly the right position to mate up with the valves, and with only a short 2" amount of pipe showing. Lawdie - that's too much precision. So I made room behind the boards (this was a new extension, so could do this before the p'boards were D&D'd in place) and ran the pipes in 10mm plastic microbore, changing to 15mm copper tails at the last point behind the boards. That gave me the required 1/2" plus 'play' room, and I needed every bit of it... Plastic decorative collars covered the mess

It's Victorian house and o spent loads on fancy column radiators and nice valves, so I can't really have Flexi pipe going into it! 

Funnily enough the umber just arrived, who works for the insulation company. I was so worried he would just want to bodge it all. But he turned up and saw some of what they did and said it was a joke, and he's reported it. They can do the insulation and render/player fine, but they know nothing about electrics or plumbing. So they plastered over the central heating pipes in the corner, but it's half sticking out of the plaster, and they filled the remaining gap with expanding foam and plastered over that, which is going to crack. It looks awful too. Photos attached. 

So luckily thus plumber is saying we rip those pipes out from beneath the plaster and insulation and drop new ones down from the ceiling in the right position. 

Stupid waste of time because the insulation guys were rushing and bodged it. They are an all polish team, seem good at what they do for the most part, work super hard, but just don't slow down to get it right. To be fair they are probably getting paid very little.
Photos attached of the bodged area. Hard to really show

Yes, the insulation/plastering guys will be just that - and the work they've done does look nicely finished. Where is all goes to pot is as you say - they are not plumbers, and neither are they particularly interested in catering for existing pipes. They thought they were doing the best they could with these pipes, but really these pipes should have been moved beforehand.

That wall on the RH side - does that have insulation in it? If so, the pipes could surely have been sunk in there and completely hidden (at least until they came out at the bottom).

Flexi pipes have their uses, but having them on show is a total no-no.

When you say 'column' rads, do you mean contemporary, tubular, designer rads, or the old-school 'cast iron' floor-standing type? If the former, then I don't know how to hide these ugly pipes - even coming down from the ceiling they will be visible to some extent. There are possibilities such as burying the existing pipes in that RH wall (if there's insulation thickness for this), reducing them down to 10mm plastic pipe at the bottom before they come out, and then hiding these behind the skirting boards until they then come back out for the rads. The visible 'tails' can be covered with 15mm decorative pipe covers. This, tho', will need someone willing to do the extra work.

If, however, you mean cast iron floor-mounted rads, then I think I'd personally toy with hiding the existing pipes in the wall as before, changing to 10mm plastic, and running these inside cast iron pipes and elbows up to the rads.

Yeah they didn't know anything about plumbing or seem to care. I did say why not move them out or in, but they said the plumber wasn't coming for a few days. Well now he's here and he's !!!!!! off! Which is great as he wants the job to be done properly. 
As I said he's just cut the pipes they plastered over, and will leave one embedded in the wall, one he ripped out. They will re plaster that corner. And the plumber will run new coppe pipes from the ceiling down the new wall. 

I actually quite like exposed unpainted copper pipes! But maybe that's just me. If it's done neatly, it doesn't bother me at all. Also useful to have them exposed if you want to make changes on the future

I just hope these guys can all work together to get this done properly!!

delmonta

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

So before you wrote this, I had planned only to put resin in the brickwork, and was going to leave the insulation and plasterboard layer empty, just with the hole for the threaded bar! So you're saying fill the whole lot up with resin? That makes sense of course. I don't know why I only was thinking of the brick work

And yes your plan with the washers sounds like an extra bit of security

Hmm, that's not what I meant, but it's actually not a bad idea!

Normally you'd drill the correct sized hole for the bar through everything, which I presume is slightly large by a mm or so (haven't looked)? And then I'd only be bothered about putting the resin in the brick hole itself, but - yes - it makes sense to inject enough to also hold the bar in the insulation layer, as this will just help to prevent sideways movement. Mind you, you'd need to ensure the bar it pointing out exactly as you want it before the resin sets...

Really, the only essential part is fixing the bar in the masonry hole - anything else is just a minor bonus.

The idea of the two nuts and washers (with one nut and washer sunk into the p'board) is not extra 'security', but to prevent the insulation layer from being crushed whilst you can still tighten up the bracket as tight as you want with no risk of this.

Ok I re read it and see what you meant! As you say can't do any harm to resin the full hole, also might make it easier to set the threaded bar perfectly without it changing position. 

As for the washers and bolts, yes I'll get some big washers for that 

delmonta

Jeepers_Creepers said:

delmonta said:

So if resin is stronger I'd like to go with that. The nuts and threaded rod will be behind the radiator. I doubt you'll see them. I could paint them black as the radiator is black 

No prob - man who go to bed with rad problem wake up with solution in hand. (That's plumber-!!!!!!)

Yes, your reason for going 'resin' is a good one. And it also solves the 'crushing' issue

Before resining-in the threaded bar, do one more wee thing - enlarge the hole in the p'board layer by the diameter of the nuts you will use, and to the depth of the nut thickness. Doesn't matter is it's slightly untidy...

Resin in threaded bar as before, and allow to set. Now fit a first nut and spin it right down until it's a washer-thickness below the p'board surface level. Put on a washer. Fit your bracket, add another washer and then the second nut. Do up that second nut and the bracket will be securely held at the correct position between two nuts and two washers, with the lower washer now sunk into the p'board surface but with no risk of 'crushing' it any further. (Have a play first - you may wish to fit the first nut and washer to end up slightly - 1mm-ish - below the surface level so the bracket is tightly drawn in to the p'board.)

Then use the masonry screw for the second fixing.

Jobbie jobbed.

Sorry one thing I didn't ask...how deep should you make the hole in the brick work for the threaded bar?

grumbler

rob7475 said:

Just one fixing through each bracket will be fine. The radiator is heavy but all the pressure will be downwards rather than pulling out from the wall. Think of a kitchen cupboard - they are usually held to the wall with four 2 or 3" screws going into brown plugs. We fill cupboards with tins and heavy crockery etc but they don't fall down.
You just need to be careful you don't overtighten the bolts and pull through the plasterboard

I am not saying that more than one fixing is needed, but your comparison doesn't work.

Screws are normally very short and cannot bend - its shear stress mainly.

In this case we have something like a 10cm cantilever. You can easily buy ordinary 15cm screws, but they will be too flexible and can possibly cut through the plasterboard.

That said, IMO the only problem with, say, 7.5x150mm masonry screws is that you can miss a brick and they may not hold well enough in the mortar.

FreeBear

delmonta said: ...how deep should you make the hole in the brick work for the threaded bar?

50-75mm should be more than plenty.